Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4574664 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 27 Dec 2011 22:38:10 +0100 Received: from [10.1.1.90] (71-13-195-18.static.eucl.wi.charter.com [71.13.195.18]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus2) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MBFEL-1RYC9z1rYT-00A5sz; Tue, 27 Dec 2011 16:44:31 -0500 From: Steve Oakley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C7441DAF-F5C9-4D4B-897D-5B7BF6322D7B" Subject: Re: [AE] best codec for cross platform sharing Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:44:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: <07ED7D7C-8746-4149-A831-EB39B9DE14BE@practicali.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:7VMosyD76qaRg1Q9LWzxbnmxJZVBi+uPf1B2sl8wohs rpG8chQxJTt7H1ktxZCdPQLmAi/cD9NwWLcO9PZxR0R/QI4vSL M9jjtl9w9tgq0R96pMobbbOCJDqGtlgdGrG6mREvCfXWlVn39m ygBX7T0mLbgxwYED5L9IOjHBn8lz4P5ATyiBeF1gNKiZiOfi4m TPPdRfkEdGK4PV7SkIOWQKu3djio+ltm0sOtSwIRl6BrvIYFth IeJmBSHIOd94AcA8Jx15uHzW0yhoF8KNZJAQG9J2D0e8tXjRCu 6O4nJ0CGu/wmZB6lQHgwJBVWXNFcsYEk9QLJzV1s+u7z6pm/Z8 RM+qPDTUEghdF3zJGxY7JLDLjmIpI/oScbFM6apujCQF6mQJ0D e6G7L3kbzn6Ig== --Apple-Mail=_C7441DAF-F5C9-4D4B-897D-5B7BF6322D7B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 interesting but.... in typical sony speak like digibeta's no its not compression its bit = rate reduction technology Mpeg4 uses mpeg1, Mpeg2 or h264 as its codec. = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4 if sony has indeed developed a NEW SR codec that isn't h264 that would = be interesting. then they are packaging it into a mpeg4 wrapper. = however, from what I read if very much does indeed look like one of the = high quality h264 variants. its entirely possible they are just talking about a 10/12bit 4:4:4 h264 = encoder which is part of the Mpeg4 spec and isn't really anything new, = just not used very much. long read but - = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC if you go 1/2 way down = it lists out the formats " Patent licensing In countries where patents on software algorithms are upheld, vendors = and commercial users of products that use H.264/AVC are expected to pay = patent licensing royalties for the patented technology[7] that their = products use. This applies to the Baseline Profile as well.[8] A private = organization known as MPEG LA, which is not affiliated in any way with = the MPEG standardization organization, administers the licenses for = patents applying to this standard, as well as the patent pools for = MPEG-2 Part 1 Systems, MPEG-2 Part 2 Video, MPEG-4 Part 2 Video, and = other technologies. The MPEG-LA patents in the US last at least until = 2027.[9] On August 26, 2010 MPEG LA announced that H.264 encoded internet video = that is free to end users will never be charged for royalties.[10] All = other royalties will remain in place such as the royalties for products = that decode and encode H.264 video.[11] The license terms are updated in = 5-year blocks.[12] In 2005, Qualcomm, which was the assignee of U.S. Patent 5,452,104 and = U.S. Patent 5,576,767, sued Broadcom in US District Court, alleging that = Broadcom infringed the two patents by making products that were = compliant with the H.264 video compression standard.[13] In 2007, the = District Court found that the patents were unenforceable because = Qualcomm had failed to disclose them to the JVT prior to the release of = the H.264 standard in May 2003.[13] In December 2008, the US Court of = Appeals for the Federal Circuit affirmed the District Court's order that = the patents be unenforceable but remanded to the District Court with = instructions to limit the scope of unenforceability to H.264 compliant = products.[13] " or put another way, Sony isn't denying its really h264 Hi444p format, = they are just side stepping around it every way they can and trying to = call it the SR codec, just like iLink =3D FW. I'd need them to = categorically deny its actually h264 and its really there own non-h264 = codec... which I don't think they'll do. its not that I think h264 is bad, or unsuitable, but you know how some = people would completely freak if they thought it was actually h264 = because, well, you know.... still 220 4:4:4 is overkill for most folks. I'll take 120-150ish or so = 4:2:2 for most work any day. s On Dec 27, 2011, at 1:14 PM, TSassoon@aol.com wrote: >=20 > In a message dated 12/27/11 9:25:55 AM, steveo@practicali.com writes: >=20 >> I was not aware that they were going to release a SR codec. thats = interesting, but its based on h264 which could potentially be problems = down the road due to patents insanity. >=20 >=20 >=20 > MPEG-4 isn't the same thing as H.264. And it has an MXF wrapper. = Interchangeable between file and tape, it's a bit like a DV or HDV = stream on spinach (well, to Popeye, anyway). The "SR Lite" rate is 220 = Mb/s. Presumably once you've licensed the codec, any patent problems = belong to Sony. >=20 > = http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-asset= s-show-highend-hdcamsr.shtml?PID=3DI:highend_2011:hdcamsr#/postFileBasedFl= ow >=20 > Sony's new "Open Kimono" policy: >=20 > "Until recently, the only place you'd find the HDCAM SR codec was in a = Sony recorder or tape. But now we're sharing the codec with a growing = community of third-party vendors. We established the codec under the = MPEG4 Simple Studio Profile (SStP), which has been internationally = standardized as ISO/IEC 14496-2." >=20 > Third parties include Adobe, AJA, Avid and Blackmagic Designs. FYI, = there's also the 16bpc 4K/8K RAW files that come out the back of an F-65 = camera, not to be confused with SRFile. According to Neil at Hollywood = DI, Resolve Lite can play back SRFiles in real time. >=20 > = http://www.btlnews.com/crafts/post-production/hollywood-di-avid-blackmagic= -design-and-sony-preview-sr-workflow-at-smpte/ >=20 > And, everyone will be glad to know, it's all IIF ACES Workflow = compatible. >=20 >=20 > Tim Sassoon > SFD > Santa Monica, CA --Apple-Mail=_C7441DAF-F5C9-4D4B-897D-5B7BF6322D7B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/= MPEG-4

if sony has indeed developed a NEW = SR codec that isn't h264 that would be interesting. then they are = packaging it into a mpeg4 wrapper. however, from what I read if very = much does indeed look like one of the high quality h264 = variants.

its entirely possible they are just = talking about a 10/12bit 4:4:4 h264 encoder which is part of the Mpeg4 = spec and isn't really anything new, just not used very much.  long = read but - http://en.wikipedia= .org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC   if you go 1/2 way down it lists = out the formats

"

Patent licensing

In countries where patents on software algorithms are upheld, = vendors and commercial users of products that use H.264/AVC are expected = to pay patent licensing royalties for the patented technologyMPEG LA, which is not affiliated in any way with = the MPEG standardization organization, administers the licenses for = patents applying to this standard, as well as the patent pools for MPEG-2 Part 1 Systems, = MPEG-2 Part 2 Video, MPEG-4 Part 2 Video, and other technologies. The = MPEG-LA patents in the US last at least until 2027.On August 26, 2010 MPEG LA announced that H.264 = encoded internet video that is free to end users will never be charged = for royalties.In 2005, Qualcomm, which was the assignee = of U.S. Patent = 5,452,104 and U.S. Patent = 5,576,767, sued Broadcom in US District Court, alleging that = Broadcom infringed the two patents by making products that were = compliant with the H.264 video compression standard.<= div>







In a message dated 12/27/11 9:25:55 AM, steveo@practicali.com = writes:

I was not aware that they were going to = release a SR codec.  thats interesting, but its based on h264 which = could potentially be problems down the road due to patents = insanity.



MPEG-4 isn't the same thing as H.264. And it has an MXF wrapper. = Interchangeable between file and tape, it's a bit like a DV or HDV = stream on spinach (well, to Popeye, anyway). The "SR Lite" rate is 220 = Mb/s. Presumably once you've licensed the codec, any patent problems = belong to Sony.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.b= bsccms-assets-show-highend-hdcamsr.shtml?PID=3DI:highend_2011:hdcamsr#/pos= tFileBasedFlow

Sony's new "Open Kimono" policy:

"Until recently, the only place you'd find the HDCAM SR codec was in a = Sony recorder or tape. But now we're sharing the codec with a growing = community of third-party vendors. We established the codec under the = MPEG4 Simple Studio Profile (SStP), which has been internationally = standardized as ISO/IEC 14496-2."

Third parties include Adobe, AJA, Avid and Blackmagic Designs. FYI, = there's also the 16bpc 4K/8K RAW files that come out the back of an F-65 = camera, not to be confused with SRFile. According to Neil at Hollywood = DI, Resolve Lite can play back SRFiles in real time.

http://www.btlnews= .com/crafts/post-production/hollywood-di-avid-blackmagic-design-and-sony-p= review-sr-workflow-at-smpte/

And, everyone will be glad to know, it's all IIF ACES Workflow = compatible.


Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA

= --Apple-Mail=_C7441DAF-F5C9-4D4B-897D-5B7BF6322D7B--