Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4574709 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Wed, 28 Dec 2011 01:12:00 +0100 Received: from [10.1.1.90] (71-13-195-18.static.eucl.wi.charter.com [71.13.195.18]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus2) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MTBcc-1RFkcd0TjC-00SaO8; Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:18:22 -0500 From: Steve Oakley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DA896B49-912D-439F-9D4B-0363F4D2138E" Subject: Re: [AE] best codec for cross platform sharing Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:18:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:5tglak94atkdpsJwMyOpurf9SdTCXaxvrJ9quAPx++Z XtJ/defOWmgJ0nHpTT0TzXuuX9WMtxwaCD9JCOIbICIRcnbqBH iwRaXR1URe+oHMIjCXtef6f6rK64wlHzUzYZYp/2pTZ/xW6Alz 4kaPUS4TdMlM0QeTAR1OOUqc7gXrVhit9xi85zqVfEvxkxKCll brXvY2srOUikyXrHsqstMLGmLPrs9pKak/u9kMYPc4tf9sOaP6 L2OQhz+g/LzB6CLF8oftbQb8z+Bh4MKAQjSmki9j2iPlOF902T m62LPCgsaWtV0Z5JN+AddJA9rBwFO75x3j1knx0lIU9GFu9LWT gQJAbbHaJzFP9lM4QDVUVubfEWhbPVNbL//yxMduazlKWyLkJC klCq03Pm66qfg== --Apple-Mail=_DA896B49-912D-439F-9D4B-0363F4D2138E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii actually, after reading a bit more, SR is based on Mpeg 4 Part 2 =3D = h263 :( so Sony really hasn't done anything so great. they just = implemented an old codec but gave it more bits to work ok.=20 On Dec 27, 2011, at 4:57 PM, TSassoon@aol.com wrote: >=20 > In a message dated 12/27/11 1:44:53 PM, steveo@practicali.com writes: >=20 >> if sony has indeed developed a NEW SR codec that isn't h264 that = would be interesting >=20 > Let me get this straight. Are you saying Adobe should come up with = some entirely new visually lossless codec completely free of patent = encumbrance and neither low bitrate nor high bitrate but perfect for = whatever it is that you do? And it has to be more original than Sony, = MPEG, SMPTE, ISO, Fraunhofer and whoever else could come up with, or = you're just going to yawn at it from utter boredom? YES. it was needed 10 years ago, and that need has not gone away. if = anything its gotten worse because of : 1. a great codec thats closed and not fully cross platform 2. is "open" but has other problems like patents 3. was never given a chance, ie digital cinema format 4. an ok codec with licensing restrictions / problems honestly its probably impossible to do anything with software these days = that doesn't touch some body's patent. its amazing the k-rap the patent = office has given out patents on, especially in the realm of software for = which they have no clue about. patent reform is a bit out of scope = here. Sony hasn't come up with anything new it seems.=20 Adobe is one of the few companies large enough to do this. I don't ask = them to do it for free. I'd be willing to pay something reasonable per = seat for it. I'd also require that the 100 year rule be answered - there = a published spec that some one can write against to at least be able to = decode the file down the road. adobe can also pick up revenue from = licensing it into hardware like cameras and recorders. just like other = adobe technologies that just keep earning them money every year. I'm tired of living in fear of apple cutting ProRes loose, or coming up = with ProRes II and never fixing the gamma shift problems with ProRes. = I've got hundreds of hours of material in ProRes. I know thats nothing = compared to what the networks have. I'm waiting for apple to do = something to completely screw this up and I can then convert to = something new. B&W RGB separation prints don't work for most folks either :( so I need a medium bit rate lossless / slightly lossy codec. one I can = use everyday to edit on with bare drives, over gigabit if I need to = without having huge problems. DV50 was a great SD codec, but we never = had DV200 HD. 4:2:2 full raster is good enough for everyday=20 > Here's a tip for you: use AE's Cineon Converter utility to convert = Lin-Log with zero Softclip (highlight rolloff), and save as QuickTime = Photo-JPEG at around 90-95. Now you have what is effectively a 10-bit = file that's completely x-plat compatible (Mac, Win, Lin, Irix, OS2, = etc.), inverts back to linear and/or can hold out of range black or = white values (you can premult and use the old "matte on super-black" = trick), is pretty close to visually lossless, and is available to you = right now at no cost. thats a great idea... except my world doesn't just revolve around AE. I = can't set my camera to output that, I can't hand it to a client and = expect them to know what to do, other apps won't work with that material = very well, ect. Its cool it can work, and in a closed environment where = everyone understands the workflow, sure. steve o --Apple-Mail=_DA896B49-912D-439F-9D4B-0363F4D2138E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii TSassoon@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 12/27/11 1:44:53 PM, steveo@practicali.com = writes:

if sony has indeed developed a NEW SR = codec that isn't h264 that would be interesting

Let me get this straight. Are you saying Adobe should come up with some = entirely new visually lossless codec completely free of patent = encumbrance and neither low bitrate nor high bitrate but perfect for = whatever it is that you do? And it has to be more original than Sony, = MPEG, SMPTE, ISO, Fraunhofer and whoever else could come up with, or = you're just going to yawn at it from utter = boredom?

YES. it was = needed 10 years ago, and that need has not gone away. if anything its = gotten worse because of :

1. a great codec = thats closed and not fully cross platform

2. is = "open"  but has other problems like = patents

3. was never given a chance, ie digital = cinema format

4. an ok codec with licensing = restrictions / problems

honestly its probably = impossible to do anything with software these days that doesn't touch = some body's patent. its amazing the k-rap the patent office has given = out patents on, especially in the realm of software for which they have = no clue about.  patent reform is a bit out of scope = here.

Sony hasn't come up with anything new it = seems. 

Adobe is one of the few companies = large enough to do this. I don't ask them to do it for free. I'd be = willing to pay something reasonable per seat for it. I'd also require = that the 100 year rule be answered - there a published spec that some = one can write against to at least be able to decode the file down the = road. adobe can also pick up revenue from licensing it into hardware = like cameras and recorders. just like other adobe technologies that just = keep earning them money every year.

I'm tired = of living in fear of apple cutting ProRes loose, or coming up with = ProRes II and never fixing the gamma shift problems with ProRes. I've = got hundreds of hours of material  in ProRes. I know thats nothing = compared to what the networks have. I'm waiting for apple to do = something to completely screw this up and I can then convert to = something new.

B&W RGB separation prints = don't work for most folks either :(

so I need a = medium bit rate lossless / slightly lossy codec. one I can use everyday = to edit on with bare drives, over gigabit if I need to without having = huge problems. DV50 was a great SD codec, but we never had DV200 HD. =  4:2:2 full raster is good enough for = everyday 

Here's a tip for you: use AE's Cineon = Converter utility to convert Lin-Log with zero Softclip (highlight = rolloff), and save as QuickTime Photo-JPEG at around 90-95. Now you have = what is effectively a 10-bit file that's completely x-plat compatible = (Mac, Win, Lin, Irix, OS2, etc.), inverts back to linear and/or can hold = out of range black or white values (you can premult and use the old = "matte on super-black" trick), is pretty close to visually lossless, and = is available to you right now at no = cost.

thats a great = idea... except my world doesn't just revolve around AE.  I can't = set my camera to output that, I can't hand it to a client and expect = them to know what to do, other apps won't work with that material very = well, ect. Its cool it can work, and in a closed environment where = everyone understands the workflow, sure.

steve = o


= --Apple-Mail=_DA896B49-912D-439F-9D4B-0363F4D2138E--