Return-Path: Received: from qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.27.228] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4606757 for ae-list@media-motion.tv; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:21:35 +0100 Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id RtMh1i0040QkzPwAFtTBj7; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:27:11 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.91] ([98.248.191.112]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id RtTA1i0192RxYYa8NtTAbs; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:27:11 +0000 From: "dennis@reelsolutions.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--834604085 Subject: Re: [AE] The Future of the Mac Pro in Video Post Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:27:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: <4A30FCE9-2372-4947-8488-E6BDEB70C3DF@reelsolutions.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) --Apple-Mail-1--834604085 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've owned and sold several of both over the past 5-10 years.... Macs - you'll be able to sell them in 2-3 years for a very decent amount = of money... PC's - you'll basically have to give them away... When considering value, it's worth keeping this in mind - it makes it a = lot less painful making upgrades every 2-3 years. - Dennis On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: > > they offer great value for money. >=20 > no they don't.=20 >=20 > Current gen Mac mini =3D $762 on amazon >=20 > - 4GB RAM (about the minimum you'd need for any kind of real AE work) > - 2.5GHz DUAL-core Intel Core i5 > - AMD Radeon HD 6630M graphics processor with 256MB of GDDR5 memory > - 500 gb hdd >=20 > Current gen PC desktop configured for around $770 >=20 > - 8 GB RAM > - 3.3 GHz QUAD core i5 > - AMD radeon 6770 > - 1 TB drive >=20 > = http://ironsidecomputers.com/index.php?main_page=3Dproduct_info&cPath=3D3_= 13&products_id=3D21 >=20 > You get literally 2x the computing power (2x the CPUs, at a faster = speed and 2x RAM) for the same price >=20 > This is why I've never seen a mac render farm. I'm sure they exist, = but in terms of the ratio of price / power macs will never be = competitive for large scale computer processing.=20 >=20 > It's just a fact.=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Chris Zwar = wrote: > Although I wasn't seriously suggesting the comparison - and Bob is = correct that the new versions of AE limit the installs of AE render so = you'd need to buy more licenses - I will repeat that the current Mac = Minis have a current and very capable processor in them. The Core 2 Duo = that I mentioned was in relation to my 3+ year old iMac. A new mac mini = has a mobile i5 in it (or an i7 if you pay a premium) and it could = easily run 2 instances of AE render. No, you wouldn't run it in = multi-processor mode, you'd run two separate instances of AE render in = single processor mode and they'd render different parts of your = composition. That's what Deadline does - it automatically splits your = render into sections (eg 1 second) and distributes them amongst the = machines on the render farm. The processors aren't exactly the Xeon = class but they're not obsolete and they offer great value for money. = That's why the idea is interesting - one monster machine or an iMac with = 4 mac minis for the same price... >=20 > The idea of a render farm - even if it's only 4 mac minis - is that = they're just render machines. They wouldn't even need a keyboard or = mouse, let alone a monitor. The only software they'd run would be = deadline, which would be executing the AE render engine in the same way = that Lloyd's BG render script does. They don't need full installs of = After Effects. >=20 > But there's all sorts of other things to take into account, such as = having to adapt your entire workflow to image sequences. I didn't = exactly do the sums or the prices accurately. But they are indicative. >=20 > As I said - it's just a thought experiment. It highlights the = difference in price between a consumer desktop and a professional = desktop, and that I've grown to like render farms :-) >=20 >=20 > -Chris > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Balint [mailto:greg@delrazor.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 01:46 PM > To: 'After Effects Mail List' > Subject: Re: [AE] The Future of the Mac Pro in Video Post >=20 > Can a dual core Mac mini run on both cores? Doesn't that bog the = system down to a stand-still? Considering a while ago when I had a dual = core pc and could only run one core in AE Mp settings, does deadline = just run a streamlined OS completely just for rendering? >=20 > Also, today's 12 core systems are 12 faster cores, with smaller = architecture and faster busses and better memory controllers. 12 cores = in one box vs 8 cores split up across core 2 duos would be no contest. = The 12 core would probably beat it by 2x the speed, even though it only = has 1/3 more processors. >=20 > I like the idea of having a dedicated farm for rendering though. That = would be a nice alternative to faster renders; the fact that you could = continue to work on a dedicated station while your renders to off and = finish on the network. >=20 >=20 > On this small topic, I know it's been asked before, but does anyone = have an idea if there are good modern AE benchmark project files out = there that stress the Mp setup and RAM and can be measured by speed of = render? I'd love to have statistics like Cinebench provides and 3dfluff = archives at cbscores.com >=20 > Maybe we can put one together as a list, and make sure we find = processor intensive plugin actions, then have a second render that = relies more on RAM (time /echo effects maybe?) >=20 >=20 > ////Greg Balint > ///Art Director / Motion Graphics Designer > delRAZOR.com/ >=20 > On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:20 PM, "Chris Zwar" wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Jim Lang = wrote: > >> Does AE work decently on a mini? > > > > From: Teddy Gage [mailto:teddygage@gmail.com] > > I think it depends on your definition of "decently," and of course, = the > > project. Could you mock up a few quick titles? Sure. Would you be = able to > > render a 1080p project with 5 million+ particles and a mess of 3D = layers > > and depth of field? probably not. > > > > > > Actually I respectfully disagree. Mac Minis come with a dual-core = i5 (i5 is what's in an iMac), if you give them enough ram they'll run = After Effects just fine. My home machine is an iMac that's just over 3 = years old, it has 4gb ram and a Core 2 Duo in it. It runs AE v5 without = any problems and I've done a lot of high end jobs with it - it's less = powerful than a current mac mini and is due to be replaced but it can = still do anything I want it to (just slowly). > > > > Here's a thought experiment: > > > > If you were to buy a high-end, 12-core Mac Pro and stick 24 GB ram = in it, the Apple Store will happily charge you $6000 for it. > > > > For the same $6000, you could buy a 27" quad-core iMac with 16GB = ram, and 4 dual-core Mac Minis with 8GB ram. If you use the change to = buy Deadline network rendering software, you've got yourself a nice iMac = workstation and a 4 machine render farm. With dual cores and 8 GB ram, = each mac mini can have 2 instances of AE render running at the same = time, so you've got 8 render engines at your disposal. > > > > Would such a setup be faster than a single 12-core Mac Pro? I don't = know. But it's worth thinking about... > > > > > > -Chris > > > > > > > > > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to > > >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Animator & Editor > www.teddygage.com > Brooklyn >=20 --Apple-Mail-1--834604085 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I've = owned and sold several of both over the past 5-10 = years....

Macs - you'll be able to sell them in 2-3 = years for a very decent amount of money...

PC's = - you'll basically have to give them = away...

When considering value, it's worth = keeping this in mind - it makes it a lot less painful making upgrades = every 2-3 years.

- = Dennis



On Jan 25, = 2012, at 9:22 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

> they = offer great value for money.

no they don't.

Current gen = Mac mini =3D $762 on amazon

- 4GB RAM (about the minimum you'd = need for any kind of real AE work)
- 2.5GHz DUAL-core Intel Core = i5
- AMD Radeon HD 6630M graphics processor with 256MB of GDDR5 memory
- = 500 gb hdd

Current gen PC desktop configured for around = $770

- 8 GB RAM
- 3.3 GHz QUAD core i5
- AMD radeon = 6770
- 1 TB drive

http://ironsidecomputers.com/index.ph= p?main_page=3Dproduct_info&cPath=3D3_13&products_id=3D21
You get literally 2x the computing power (2x the CPUs, at a faster = speed and 2x RAM) for the same price

This is why I've never seen a mac render farm. I'm sure they exist, = but in terms of the ratio of price / power macs will never be = competitive for large scale computer processing.

It's just a = fact.

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Chris = Zwar <chris@chriszwar.com> = wrote:
Although I wasn't seriously suggesting the comparison - and Bob is = correct that the new versions of AE limit the installs of AE render so = you'd need to buy more licenses - I will repeat that the current Mac = Minis have a current and very capable processor in them.  The Core = 2 Duo that I mentioned was in relation to my 3+ year old iMac.  A = new mac mini has a mobile i5 in it (or an i7 if you pay a premium) and = it could easily run 2 instances of AE render.  No, you wouldn't run = it in multi-processor mode, you'd run two separate instances of AE = render in single processor mode and they'd render different parts of = your composition.  That's what Deadline does - it automatically = splits your render into sections (eg 1 second) and distributes them = amongst the machines on the render farm.  The processors aren't = exactly the Xeon class but they're not obsolete and they offer great = value for money.  That's why the idea is interesting - one monster = machine or an iMac with 4 mac minis for the same price...

The idea of a render farm - even if it's only 4 mac minis - is that = they're just render machines.  They wouldn't even need a keyboard = or mouse, let alone a monitor.  The only software they'd run would = be deadline, which would be executing the AE render engine in the same = way that Lloyd's BG render script does.  They don't need full = installs of After Effects.

But there's all sorts of other things to take into account, such as = having to adapt your entire workflow to image sequences.  I didn't = exactly do the sums or the prices accurately.  But they are = indicative.

As I said - it's just a thought experiment.  It highlights the = difference in price between a consumer desktop and a professional = desktop, and that I've grown to like render farms :-)


-Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Balint [mailto:greg@delrazor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 01:46 PM
To: 'After Effects Mail List'
Subject: Re: [AE] The Future of the Mac Pro in Video Post

Can a dual core Mac mini = run on both cores? Doesn't that bog the system down to a stand-still? =  Considering a while ago when I had a dual core pc and could only = run one core in AE Mp settings, does deadline just run a streamlined OS = completely just for rendering?

Also, today's 12 core systems are 12 faster cores, with smaller = architecture and faster busses and better memory controllers.  12 = cores in one box vs 8 cores split up across core 2 duos would be no = contest. The 12 core would probably beat it by 2x the speed, even though = it only has 1/3 more processors.

I like the idea of having a dedicated farm for rendering though. That = would be a nice alternative to faster renders; the fact that you could = continue to work on a dedicated station while your renders to off and = finish on the network.


On this small topic, I know it's been asked before, but does anyone have = an idea if there are good modern AE benchmark project files out there = that stress the Mp setup and RAM and can be measured by speed of render? =  I'd love to have statistics like Cinebench provides and 3dfluff = archives at cbscores.com

Maybe we can put one together as a list, and make sure we find processor = intensive plugin actions, then have a second render that relies more on = RAM (time /echo effects maybe?)


////Greg Balint
///Art Director / Motion Graphics Designer
delRAZOR.com/

On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:20 PM, "Chris Zwar" <chris@chriszwar.com> = wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Jim Lang <james.c.lang@gmail.com> = wrote:
>> Does AE work decently on a mini?
>
> From: Teddy Gage [mailto:teddygage@gmail.com]
> I think it depends on your definition of "decently," and of course, = the
> project. Could you mock up a few quick titles? Sure. Would you be = able to
> render a 1080p project with 5 million+ particles and a mess of 3D = layers
> and depth of field? probably not.
>
>
> Actually I respectfully disagree.  Mac Minis come with a = dual-core i5 (i5 is what's in an iMac), if you give them enough ram = they'll run After Effects just fine.  My home machine is an iMac = that's just over 3 years old, it has 4gb ram and a Core 2 Duo in it. =  It runs AE v5 without any problems and I've done a lot of high end = jobs with it - it's less powerful than a current mac mini and is due to = be replaced but it can still do anything I want it to (just slowly).
>
> Here's a thought experiment:
>
> If you were to buy a high-end, 12-core Mac Pro and stick 24 GB ram = in it, the Apple Store will happily charge you $6000 for it.
>
> For the same $6000, you could buy a 27" quad-core iMac with 16GB = ram, and 4 dual-core Mac Minis with 8GB ram.  If you use the change = to buy Deadline network rendering software, you've got yourself a nice = iMac workstation and a 4 machine render farm.  With dual cores and = 8 GB ram, each mac mini can have 2 instances of AE render running at the = same time, so you've got 8 render engines at your disposal.
>
> Would such a setup be faster than a single 12-core Mac Pro?  I = don't know.  But it's worth thinking about...
>
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
>
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>
>

+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>




+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>



--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn


= --Apple-Mail-1--834604085--