Return-Path: Received: from na3sys009aog134.obsmtp.com ([74.125.149.83] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 4716361 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Wed, 16 May 2012 17:05:42 +0200 Received: from mail.stsci.edu ([130.167.238.10]) (using TLSv1) by na3sys009aob134.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT7PCsRlEl8eKjQdNYAz6ipd8jLBF10s4@postini.com; Wed, 16 May 2012 08:07:31 PDT Received: from EXCHMAIL2.stsci.edu ([169.254.2.40]) by EXCHCAS1.stsci.edu ([130.167.238.10]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Wed, 16 May 2012 11:05:23 -0400 From: Greg Bacon To: After Effects Mail List , "stephen@sv2studios.com" Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?) Thread-Topic: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?) Thread-Index: AQHNM3VQ4XI0ntYgckCaVsvnYY5bdw== Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 15:05:22 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.167.166.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CBD939D115142baconstsciedu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_CBD939D115142baconstsciedu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen, A colleague of mine; Frank Summers (visualizer and astronomer) tried to sen= d you a message via the AE list, but I'm not sure if it made (since he is n= ot a member). Hope this information helps=85. I'm copy/pasting his message= : Stephen, Greg Bacon passed along your message to me. I'm an astronomer in the Office= of Public Outreach at the Space Telescope Science Institute (home of Hubbl= e). Right Ascension (RA) and Declination (dec) are simply angular coordinates o= n the sky, analogous to longitude and latitude on Earth. The usual tricky p= art is that astronomers traditionally specify RA in hours-minutes-seconds a= nd dec in degrees-minutes-seconds. Your source gave you the decimal convers= ion, so everything you have should be in degrees. To get the 3D equatorial coordinates, I would write a perl script that uses= the spherical polar coordinate transform: Z =3D D * cos(90 =96 dec) X =3D D * sin(90 =96 dec) * cos(RA) Y =3D D * sin(90 =96 dec) * sin(RA) Remember that you have to convert degrees to radians (mulitply by pi/180) b= efore calling sin and cos in most programming languages. Now this gives you equatorial coordinates in which the Z axis is Earth's ro= tational axis and the XY plane is the projection of Earth's equator onto th= e sky. You may want a different coordinate system, which will require rotat= ing these coordinates. Most likely that will depend on what coordinate syst= em is being used for objects in the foreground. Other useful coordinate systems are: - ecliptic coordinates =97 XY plane is plane of Earth's orbit around the Su= n, good for solar system shots - galactic coordinates =97 XY plane is plane of Milky Way, good for extraga= lactic shots You are correct in noting that there are usually several distance measures = to a galaxy. Distance in the universe is quite difficult to measure. My adv= ice is to use only one source. It will have errors, but the errors should b= e consistent with each other. Using multiple sources can produce nonsensica= l situations (at least from an astronomers point of view). I will also note that galaxies are very small compared to the distances bet= ween them. When doing the flight from the Milky Way to the Virgo Cluster in= IMAX "Hubble 3D", the size of each galaxy was scaled up by about 4-5 in or= der to make them more visible during the flight. Don't know what you are wo= rking on, but you will likely want to do a similar scaling. Frank Summers Space Telescope Science Institute 3700 San Martin Dr Baltimore, MD 21218 410-338-4749 From: Stephen van Vuuren > Reply-To: After Effects Mail List >, "stephen@sv2studios.com" <= stephen@sv2studios.com> Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:55 AM To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?) Just in test form =96 volunteers are being recruited to populate it. Here= =92s the data. The three distance (MPC or megaparsec) is due to lack of agr= eement. I=92m thinking of averaging them. Object RA (decimal) Dec (decimal) Distance from HST Release Info (Mpc) Distance from NED (MPC) Distance from Simbad (MPC) M104 189.997633 -11.623054 9 10.39 11.52 NGC 1316 50.673000 -37.209306 23 20.135 21.13 NGC 3310 159.691071 53.503303 18 18.1 18.58 stephen van vuuren 336.202.4777 http://www.sv2dcp.com/ http://www.sv2studios.com/ http://www.outsideinthemovie.com/ A film is =96 or should be =96 more like music than like fiction. It should= be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=92s behind the emo= tion, the meaning, all that comes later. =96Stanley Kubrick From: Dan Ebberts [mailto:debberts@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 12:43 AM To: After Effects Mail List; stephen@sv2studios.com Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?) What form is the data in now? The script could certainly do the conversion = from right ascension , declination and distance. Then I think all you need= is to pick a scale factor for the distance to fit everything into a AE-siz= ed world. How much data is there? Dan From:Stephen van Vuuren Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:01 PM To:After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?) Phil, Not in a huge rush and that would certainly get you listed in the film=92s = credits =96 thanks so much for the offer. Let me work on the Excel side of = things (not that I=92m genius there either but it should be possible) to ge= t it sorted out. I am wondering about the multiplier =96 wonder if it needs to be truly loga= rithmic giving the size of the universe. The observable universe is 46 bill= ion light years across, the average galaxy (e.g. ours) is 100,000 light yea= rs, that=92s a ratio of 460,000 : 1. Any idea of maximum XYZ values in AE? stephen van vuuren 336.202.4777 http://www.sv2dcp.com/ http://www.sv2studios.com/ http://www.outsideinthemovie.com/ A film is =96 or should be =96 more like music than like fiction. It should= be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=92s behind the emo= tion, the meaning, all that comes later. =96Stanley Kubrick From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv]On Behalf Of Phil Spitler Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:43 PM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?) If you can get the data into a spreadsheet into X,Y,Z columns, it would be = easy enough to have a script read each row of x,y,z and apply that to the p= osition of a layer. I have done a similar thing taking camera data from a motion control rig in= to AE. If you are not in a huge rush, I could write the script for you once you gi= ve me a sample of the data. You will probably need some kind of multiplier in there to make the values = fit within you AE world. Phil Phil Spitler | Associate Creative Director | Bonfire Labs | t : 415.39= 4.8200 | c : 415.571.3139 | Bonfirelabs.com On May 15, 2012, at 8:21 PM, Stephen van Vuuren wrote: I=92m working on the Big Bang section of the film. A local community colleg= e is researching celestial objects that have been imaged. They provide two = pieces of data =96 the spherical position via a value for right ascension &= declination. And a distance in megaparsecs. I need to convert this into a manageable form in AE. Obviously, some kind o= f compensation for I found this on converting to XYZ =96 but the how to create the math to wor= k in AE, I=92m not sure what is the best way: http://fmwriters.com/Visionback/Issue14/wbputtingstars.htm I don=92t know if this should be setup in Excel and then exported into AE, = or some kind of script built =96 which is probably beyond my admittedly poo= r scripting skills. Thoughts? stephen van vuuren 336.202.4777 http://www.sv2dcp.com/ http://www.sv2studios.com/ http://www.outsideinthemovie.com/ A film is =96 or should be =96 more like music than like fiction. It should= be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=92s behind the emo= tion, the meaning, all that comes later. =96Stanley Kubrick --_000_CBD939D115142baconstsciedu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stephen,

A colleague of mine; Frank Summers (visualizer and astronomer) tried t= o send you a message via the AE list, but I'm not sure if it made (since he= is not a member).  Hope this information helps=85. I'm copy/pasting h= is message:

Stephen,

Greg Bacon passed along your message to me. I'm an astronomer in the O= ffice of Public Outreach at the Space Telescope Science Institute (home of = Hubble).

Right Ascension (RA) and Declination (dec) are simply angular coordina= tes on the sky, analogous to longitude and latitude on Earth. The usual tri= cky part is that astronomers traditionally specify RA in hours-minutes-seco= nds and dec in degrees-minutes-seconds. Your source gave you the decimal conversion, so everything you have should= be in degrees.

To get the 3D equatorial coordinates, I would write a perl script that= uses the spherical polar coordinate transform:

Z =3D D * cos(90 =96 dec)
X =3D D * sin(90 =96 dec) * cos(RA)
Y =3D D * sin(90 =96 dec) * sin(RA)

Remember that you have to convert degrees to radians (mulitply by pi/1= 80) before calling sin and cos in most programming languages.

Now this gives you equatorial coordinates in which the Z axis is Earth= 's rotational axis and the XY plane is the projection of Earth's equator on= to the sky. You may want a different coordinate system, which will require = rotating these coordinates. Most likely that will depend on what coordinate system is being used for object= s in the foreground.

Other useful coordinate systems are:
- ecliptic coordinates =97 XY plane is plane of Earth's orbit around t= he Sun, good for solar system shots
- galactic coordinates =97 XY plane is plane of Milky Way, good for ex= tragalactic shots

You are correct in noting that there are usually several distance meas= ures to a galaxy. Distance in the universe is quite difficult to measure. M= y advice is to use only one source. It will have errors, but the errors sho= uld be consistent with each other. Using multiple sources can produce nonsensical situations (at least from a= n astronomers point of view).

I will also note that galaxies are very small compared to the distance= s between them. When doing the flight from the Milky Way to the Virgo Clust= er in IMAX "Hubble 3D", the size of each galaxy was scaled up by = about 4-5 in order to make them more visible during the flight. Don't know what you are working on, but you will likely= want to do a similar scaling.

Frank Summers

Space Telescope Science Institute
3700 San Martin Dr
Baltimore, MD 21218
410-338-4749




From: Stephen van Vuuren <stephen@sv2studios.com>
Reply-To: After Effects Mail List &= lt;AE-List@media-motion.tv&g= t;, "stephen@sv2studios.com<= /a>" <stephen@sv2studios.= com>
Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:55 = AM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical posi= tioning in AE (script?)

Just in test form =96 volunteers a= re being recruited to populate it. Here=92s the data. The three distance (M= PC or megaparsec) is due to lack of agreement. I=92m thinking of averaging them.

 

Object

RA (decimal)<= /b>

Dec (decimal)=

Distance from HST Release Info = (Mpc)

Distance from NED (MPC)

Distance from Simbad (MPC)=

M104

189.997633

-11.623054

9

10.39

11.52

NGC 1316

50.673000

-37.209306

23

20.135

21.13

NGC 3310

159.691071

53.503303

18

18.1

18.58

 

 

stephen van vuuren

336.202.4777

 

http://www.sv2dcp.com/<= /span>

http://www.sv2studios.com/=

http://www.outsideinthemovie.c= om/

 

A film is =96 or should be =96 = more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and = feelings. The theme, what=92s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later.

=96Stanley Kubrick

 

From: Dan Ebberts [mailto:debberts@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 12:43 AM
To: After Effects Mail List; stephen@sv2studios.com
Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?)

 

What form is the data in now? The script could certainly do th= e conversion from right ascension ,  declination and distance. Then I thin= k all you need is to pick a scale factor for the distance to fit everything= into a AE-sized world. How much data is there?

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?)

 

Phil,

 

Not in a huge rush and that would = certainly get you listed in the film=92s credits =96 thanks so much for the= offer. Let me work on the Excel side of things (not that I=92m genius there either but it should be possible) to g= et it sorted out.

 

I am wondering about the multiplie= r =96 wonder if it needs to be truly logarithmic giving the size of the uni= verse. The observable universe is 46 billion light years across, the average galaxy (e.g. ours) is 100,000 light years,= that=92s a ratio of 460,000 : 1.

 

Any idea of maximum XYZ values in = AE?

 

stephen van vuuren

336.202.4777

 

http://www.sv2dcp.com/

http://www.sv2studios.com/=

http://www.outsideinthemovie.c= om/

 

A film is =96 or should be =96 = more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and = feelings. The theme, what=92s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later.

=96Stanley Kubrick

 

From: After Effects Mail L= ist [mailto:AE-List@media-m= otion.tv]On Behalf Of Phil Spitler
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:43 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Astronomical positioning in AE (script?)

 =

If you can get the data = into a spreadsheet into X,Y,Z columns, it would be easy enough to have a sc= ript read each row of x,y,z and apply that to the position of a layer.=

 =

I have done a similar th= ing taking camera data from a motion control rig into AE.=

 =

If you are not in a huge= rush, I could write the script for you once you give me a sample of the da= ta.

 =

You will probably need s= ome kind of multiplier in there to make the values fit within you AE world.=

 =

Phil

 =

Phil Spitler |   Associa= te Creative Director  |  Bonfire Labs |  t : 415.394.8200&nb= sp; |  c : 415.571.3139  |  Bonfirelabs.com

 =

 =

 =

 =

 

 =

On May 15, 2012, at 8:21= PM, Stephen van Vuuren wrote:

 

I=92m working on the Big Bang section of the = film. A local community college is researching celestial objects that have = been imaged. They provide two pieces of data =96 the spherical position via a value for right ascension & decl= ination. And a distance in megaparsecs.

 

I need to convert this into a manageable form= in AE. Obviously, some kind of compensation for

 

I found this on converting to XYZ =96 but the= how to create the math to work in AE, I=92m not sure what is the best way:=

 

 

I don=92t know if this should be setup in Exc= el and then exported into AE, or some kind of script built =96 which is pro= bably beyond my admittedly poor scripting skills.


Thoughts?

 

stephen van vuuren

336.202.4777

 =

 =

A film is =96 or should be =96 more like m= usic than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. T= he theme, what=92s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later.

=96Stanley Kubrick

 

 =

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