Return-Path: Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.186] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4736774 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Wed, 06 Jun 2012 18:14:44 +0200 Received: from oxbaltgw02.schlund.de (oxbaltgw02.schlund.de [172.19.246.8]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Lu4L0-1RscnP37WY-011VJn; Wed, 06 Jun 2012 18:17:14 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:17:13 +0200 (CEST) From: "mylenium@mylenium.de" Reply-To: "mylenium@mylenium.de" To: After Effects Mail List Message-ID: <790970632.272883.1338999433744.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1und1.de> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [AE] Why a raytraced renderer? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_272882_496771749.1338999433684" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v- X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:nm/MlwmxCrfl+QZZG2a2F6C/2tP2nggGzmWHQ/WQxsj q15yB/tmg1Px4rhBqjb6pRG1UO3OUVq/TLYS0C7n2rY0yTftso +ZXeOnuvlFb54hrp62t95PI9h/XpTtkSA578mW3BNM0ac9wC+1 MSxRzTt98IBrYpmSRvPyA6Kx0Oa4Lrxd8uQ/RdVQYsJVk9CscJ 6cD3A6/GiUKzYC9bK797QUgrEp/wIIxipOoUrURGqa/n7kkB9W FCob+Bs6FTKvUzGAtq7R0vcZWN6CM3MtAf6Bla5RZBVwVmwlr6 LDD1hUVvef+PQ3OUfo4zl9fnwC6usTlAs/8kbjk8FIwi9OACs6 7QwkFlJ83eGIfkx10tklIk/mPne04e3ajiN2YXvP/5L46m/dgo 5L2AxllOHWTvCqL8Yu+lkTETy6maY4hGgg= ------=_Part_272882_496771749.1338999433684 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think that it's a matter of who is paying money to who. Nvidia isn'= t any bigger than Adobe and has been in all kinds of trouble for the last 2 years= with their products not living up to their promises. It's only now that they're recovering. That aside, Adobe has long had the opportunity and money to lic= ense any of the available third-party renderers out there and that would suffici= ently have taken care of the actual final rendering part, no matter whether it wo= uld have been a pure CPU renderer like MentalRay, vRay, or any of the PRMan compliant renderers out there, one of the CPU/ GPU hybrid versions of those renderers (iRay, VRay RT), a genuine GPU renderer like Octane or a GPU/ CPU= / GPGPU tool like Arion. Not to speak of others or emerging tech like the lat= e Clarisse iFX. Had they chosen that path, they could have focused on the thi= ngs that really matter - providing a better 3D user experience by giving us pro= per 3D viewports, a better graph editor, a realworld unit system, handling of 3= D files and ultimately even an OpenGL that is on par with 3D programs or game= s even. But what do I know - I've been preaching this for the last 5 years, b= ut nobody ever listens, so by the time CS8 comes around, we'll probably still = be happily buying plug-ins, use 3D programs or move on to competitors because = in all that bling-bling After Effects has lost what once made it so great - be= ing the bestest motion graphics program on the planet for those whou could not afford anything else. Mylenium [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] ----------------------------------------- www.mylenium.de Greg Balint hat am 6. Juni 2012 um 17:47 geschrieben: > Honestly, it strikes me more as a decision made by money, and nVidia, tha= n > engineers alone. I know the teams at Adobe do their best to push the limi= ts of > the software and make awesome new innovative features, but I can't be bli= nd to > the fact that if Intel came up to the bigwigs at Adobe and paid them a hu= ge > fortune, they could probably demand that some software only runs on Sandy > Bridge or some other processor or above, and Adobe, being a for-profit > company, would see value in that for their company, and hope that most pe= ople > would just accept the requirements and upgrade. > > I can get plenty of great reflections and shadows and refractions, etc, w= ith > most software renderers out there. Raytracing is great for more photoreal= istic > renders, however I don't find that it's at all necessary for simple extru= ded > shapes. Heck. I've not used a raytracing renderer for any professional 3d= work > that I've ever done in the 12 years i've been doing this, only because I = don't > have one to work with, and the results of the software render in my progr= ams > have been plenty fine to work with for my cases. > > All that being said, I don't think there's any productive route to compla= in > about this sort of exclusivity. And who knows? Maybe in the future we'll = have > a decent software renderer that uses CPUs properly, as most other true > 3d programs do. We have to consider the fact that this is a first iterat= ion > feature, and also that it still needs to tie into the rest of the render > engine properly. Perhaps a software renderer that handles 3d as well as t= he 2d > layer structure of AE is much more complicated than just a true 3d only > renderer. > > > ////Greg Balint > ///Art Director / Motion Graphics Designer > delRAZOR.com/ > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Dave Bittner wrote: > > > At NAB this year someone quipped that the person who's going to benefit= most > > from the new AE 3D renderer is Zax Dow, who's going to be selling a lot= of > > copies of Pro Animator. > > > > I'm left scratching my head that something as basic as text extrusion, = which > > we've been wanting for years, is tied to this cumbersome 3D renderer. I= t > > strikes me as being a decision made by engineers, not artists. > > > > On Jun 5, 2012, at 10:01PM, Brian Maffitt wrote: > > > >> This all assumes one has an upgradeable machine. If you are using a > >> non-supported laptop or an all-in-one machine (iMac) with an ATI or In= tel > >> card, your only recourse is a whole new machine... or work slowly. > > > > > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to > > > > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to ------=_Part_272882_496771749.1338999433684 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20

I don't think that it's a matter of= who is paying money to who. Nvidia isn't any bigger than Adobe and has= been in all kinds of trouble for the last 2 years with their products not = living up to their promises. It's only now that they're recovering.= That aside, Adobe has long had the opportunity and money to license any of= the available third-party renderers out there and that would sufficiently = have taken care of the actual final rendering part, no matter whether it wo= uld have been a pure CPU renderer like MentalRay, vRay, or any of the PRMan= compliant renderers out there, one of the CPU/ GPU hybrid versions of thos= e renderers (iRay, VRay RT), a genuine GPU renderer like Octane or a GPU/ C= PU/ GPGPU tool like Arion. Not to speak of others or emerging tech like the= late Clarisse iFX. Had they chosen that path, they could have focused on t= he things that really matter - providing a better 3D user experience by giv= ing us proper 3D viewports, a better graph editor, a realworld unit system,= handling of 3D files and ultimately even an OpenGL that is on par with 3D = programs or games even. But what do I know - I've been preaching this f= or the last 5 years, but nobody ever listens, so by the time CS8 comes arou= nd, we'll probably still be happily buying plug-ins, use 3D programs or= move on to competitors because in all that bling-bling After Effects has l= ost what once made it so great - being the bestest motion graphics program = on the planet for those whou could not afford anything else.

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Mylenium

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[Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]
--------------------------= ---------------
www.mylenium.de

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Greg Balint <greg@delrazor.com> hat am 6. Juni 2012 um 17:4= 7 geschrieben:

> Honestly, it strikes me more as a decision made by money, and= nVidia, than engineers alone. I know the teams at Adobe do their best to p= ush the limits of the software and make awesome new innovative features, bu= t I can't be blind to the fact that if Intel came up to the bigwigs at = Adobe and paid them a huge fortune, they could probably demand that some so= ftware only runs on Sandy Bridge or some other processor or above, and Adob= e, being a for-profit company, would see value in that for their company, a= nd hope that most people would just accept the requirements and upgrade.=20
>=20
> I can get plenty of great reflections and shadows and refract= ions, etc, with most software renderers out there. Raytracing is great for = more photorealistic renders, however I don't find that it's at all = necessary for simple extruded shapes. Heck. I've not used a raytracing = renderer for any professional 3d work that I've ever done in the 12 yea= rs i've been doing this, only because I don't have one to work with= , and the results of the software render in my programs have been plenty fi= ne to work with for my cases.=20
>=20
> All that being said, I don't think there's any produc= tive route to complain about this sort of exclusivity. And who knows? Maybe= in the future we'll have a decent software renderer that uses CPUs pro= perly, as most other true
> 3d programs do.  We have to consider the fact that this = is a first iteration feature, and also that it still needs to tie into the = rest of the render engine properly. Perhaps a software renderer that handle= s 3d as well as the 2d layer structure of AE is much more complicated than = just a true 3d only renderer.=20
>=20
>=20
> ////Greg Balint
> ///Art Director / Motion Graphics Designer
> delRAZOR.com/
>=20
> On Jun 6, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Dave Bittner <dave@pixelwork= shop.com> wrote:
>=20
> > At NAB this year someone quipped that the person who= 9;s going to benefit most from the new AE 3D renderer is Zax Dow, who's= going to be selling a lot of copies of Pro Animator.=20
> >=20
> > I'm left scratching my head that something as basic= as text extrusion, which we've been wanting for years, is tied to this= cumbersome 3D renderer. It strikes me as being a decision made by engineer= s, not artists.=20
> >=20
> > On Jun 5, 2012, at 10:01PM, Brian Maffitt wrote:
> >=20
> >> This all assumes one has an upgradeable machine. I= f you are using a non-supported laptop or an all-in-one machine (iMac) with= an ATI or Intel card, your only recourse is a whole new machine... or work= slowly.
> >=20
> >=20
> > +---End of message---+
> > To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@med= ia-motion.tv>
> >=20
>=20
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-mot= ion.tv>
=20 =20 ------=_Part_272882_496771749.1338999433684--