Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4753960 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:22:51 +0200 Received: from [10.1.1.22] (71-13-195-18.static.eucl.wi.charter.com [71.13.195.18]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LruGE-1Rkxue0hcE-013dNr; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 14:25:47 -0400 From: Steve Oakley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1EA678C4-552D-4788-B9C0-06F975BE10A7" Subject: Re: [AE] contracts, slightly OT Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:25:45 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:e15cpHC+8SL56yMGX5MSBwg6JX8tNsQYKCVZ7102NWy wLKJFEC4/BuyLSpcdNDxviz4n8QifsugbHn1jlmieSBdGQXGxA Qpz04phd0/70vlrW5dY9PVotskQzqLHSeZ0+ad9hyT5SdxAjRc jvwKX/AvIFIJ8ILsK+647pTIv/2N9uzOnsgKtsuTc+6/RKWvCL 3OXO0Q4x6s+uvkhhzqSw+pB8H7JwCzo9WqQqg7szZ+SV/sGW4c poI+YqrN6b0JceIY/kwNJhKT91Y6qysRLi+mC/MGCRHEUTXbdV LCqdNmf7F06GipgRGWJ4+P93n1BuMpvOAa+RkT6Q6j7nJ/C2bH qzpsuzRakg/IqvZLlEFV+tlyw9oJC71nJd7OHgAaacH7rDa+Wa ea232zX3Kj2Ag== --Apple-Mail=_1EA678C4-552D-4788-B9C0-06F975BE10A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 if a project is more than a couple days work, you had best be getting a = deposit up front, in the middle and at the end with any extras added on. ya I know all about "getting in the system" which is why I have all = sorts of forms prefilled out at print res ready to go. invoice goes out = within 24hrs of project complete. don't sit for weeks or longer before = getting it out. as for the non-payers, you can waste a lot of time trying to be nice = with demand notices, ect or using a collection agency ( TOTAL waste of = time ). in the end, with dead beats you just go file against them. you = send a final demand notice after 30-60 days, no pay ? last courtesy = final demand notice to pya in 5-10 days ? still no pay, go file. in WI = small claims max amount is now $10K, your state may vary. this makes it = easy to deal with small dead beats. even if you think they don't have = the $, go file and get judgement anyway. when they go to get a loan, = register their car, and a few other things it will show up and stop = them. in the end no one wants that and they always pay or offer = settlement. 5% a day is pretty much illegal anywhere and will get you charged under = loan sharking statues. you can charge a late fee - 10% for me, + 1 to 2 = % interest PER MONTH. thats legal. you should also make it net 10 days. S On Jun 21, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: > In my experience I often find the largest companies are the slowest to = pay. I have heard from people on the inside it is something of a company = policy to delay freelance invoices so the budgets looks better. = Additionally, if you're not "in the system" yet there's always some lazy = body in accounting who forgets to include you in that pay cycle. I find = smaller places it's easier to get paid quickly because of the personal = connection. However I would agree there's more risk of a small place = never paying at all. And like jim said I usually go hourly first or = demand half up front when the bid is accepted. Unless I have grave = misgivings or its a huge project I usually don't bother with a contract. = Risky, but 90% of my business is done with a handshake... I worry places = would be put off if it came to that. I work regularly in nyc, maybe = things are different in LA etc >=20 > On Jun 21, 2012 11:33 AM, "Jim Curtis" wrote: > I have different kinds of clients. Some are small production = companies and agencies. Some huge corporations and non-profits. The = latter ones make me sign their PSA, and I always get paid on their = schedule. It's the small agencies who are the worst, and the most = likely to either nickel-and-dime me, take forever to pay, or dock my = invoice for some imagined shortcoming. >=20 > I wish I could hold onto masters as a lien/security, but most projects = are time-sensitive, and that's seldom possible or practical. >=20 > When I was in production, and on the hook for payments for film, = freelancers, meals, travel, etc., I demanded =E2=85=93 up front, =E2=85=93= upon completion of production, and balance upon delivery of master, = spelled out in a written agreement. >=20 > But, now I'm strictly post. I do have a standard spiel for new = clients: I charge by the hour until a working relationship is = established, so I know what I'm getting into in terms of client = involvement and working methods. If they demand a bid, I tell them up = front, I'm going to bid double what I think the job will really require, = to try to prevent working for half price. >=20 > Nothing is written. It says on my invoice that "Payment is due upon = receipt" (although many of them ignore this, and pay me after they get = paid). >=20 > I haven't been shafted since I cut an independent short for a = so-called "friend." >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jun 21, 2012, at 8:28 AM, henry birdseye wrote: >=20 > > After reading the absolutely horrifying stories on The World's = Longest Invoice (http://worldslongestinvoice.tumblr.com/), I'm highly = motivated to require a contract with new customers. > > > > How many of you are using contracts and do you have an example of = one that pertains directly to motion graphic work? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to >=20 >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to --Apple-Mail=_1EA678C4-552D-4788-B9C0-06F975BE10A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 if a = project is more than a couple days work, you had best be getting a = deposit up front, in the middle and at the end with any extras added = on.

ya I know all about "getting in the system" which = is why I have all sorts of forms prefilled out at print res ready to go. = invoice goes out within 24hrs of project complete. don't sit for weeks = or longer before getting it out.

as for the = non-payers, you can waste a lot of time trying to be nice with demand = notices, ect or using a collection agency ( TOTAL waste of time ). in = the end, with dead beats you just go file against them. you send a final = demand notice after 30-60 days, no pay ? last courtesy final demand = notice to pya in 5-10 days ? still no pay, go file.  in WI small = claims max amount is now $10K, your state may vary. this makes it easy = to deal with small dead beats. even if you think they don't have the $, = go file and get judgement anyway. when they go to get a loan, register = their car, and a few other things it will show up and stop them. in the = end no one wants that and they always pay or offer = settlement.

5% a day is pretty much illegal = anywhere and will get you charged under loan sharking statues. you can = charge a late fee - 10% for me, + 1 to 2 % interest PER MONTH. thats = legal. you should also make it net 10 = days.

S


On= Jun 21, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

In my = experience I often find the largest companies are the slowest to pay. I = have heard from people on the inside it is something of a company policy = to delay freelance invoices so the budgets looks better. Additionally, = if you're not "in the system" yet there's always some lazy body in = accounting who forgets to include you in that pay cycle. I find smaller = places it's easier to get paid quickly because of the personal = connection. However I would agree there's more risk of a small place = never paying at all. And like jim said I usually go hourly first or = demand half up front when the bid is accepted. Unless I have grave = misgivings or its a huge project I usually don't bother with a contract. = Risky, but 90% of my business is done with a handshake... I worry places = would be put off if it came to that. I work regularly in nyc, maybe = things are different in LA etc

On Jun 21, 2012 11:33 AM, "Jim Curtis" <jpcurtis@me.com> wrote:
I have different kinds of clients.  Some are small production = companies and agencies.  Some huge corporations and non-profits. =  The latter ones make me sign their PSA, and I always get paid on = their schedule.  It's the small agencies who are the worst, and the = most likely to either nickel-and-dime me, take forever to pay, or dock = my invoice for some imagined shortcoming.

I wish I could hold onto masters as a lien/security, but most projects = are time-sensitive, and that's seldom possible or practical.

When I was in production, and on the hook for payments for film, = freelancers, meals, travel, etc., I demanded =E2=85=93 up front, =E2=85=93= upon completion of production, and balance upon delivery of master, = spelled out in a written agreement.

But, now I'm strictly post.  I do have a standard spiel for new = clients:  I charge by the hour until a working relationship is = established, so I know what I'm getting into in terms of client = involvement and working methods.  If they demand a bid, I tell them = up front, I'm going to bid double what I think the job will really = require, to try to prevent working for half price.

Nothing is written.  It says on my invoice that "Payment is due = upon receipt" (although many of them ignore this, and pay me after they = get paid).

I haven't been shafted since I cut an independent short for a so-called = "friend."



On Jun 21, 2012, at 8:28 AM, henry birdseye wrote:

> After reading the absolutely horrifying stories on The World's = Longest Invoice (http://worldslongestinvoice.tumblr.com/), I'm = highly motivated to require a contract with new customers.
>
> How many of you are using contracts and do you have an example of = one that pertains directly to motion graphic work?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>


+---End of message---+
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