Return-Path: Received: from [216.70.64.52] (HELO n17.mail01.mtsvc.net) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 4873531 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 16 Oct 2012 02:53:49 +0200 Received: from 124-168-56-108.dyn.iinet.net.au ([124.168.56.108]:53016 helo=[192.168.2.104]) by n17.mail01.mtsvc.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TNvS2-00076L-Nb for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:56:08 -0400 From: Tim Clapham Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6EAFE832-2343-4EDC-95D3-6914B4EE99D7" Subject: Re: [AE] RED in CS6 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 11:56:03 +1100 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: <7C23B647-8A2E-49FE-A39B-9CF2BC14C1F7@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Authenticated-User: 946184 sales@helloluxx.com --Apple-Mail=_6EAFE832-2343-4EDC-95D3-6914B4EE99D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Another reason to use the best quality debayer is if you need to pull = keys from the footage. I recently worked on some shots and the original = footage was debayered at a high quality, then a different operator sent = me some more files using a lower setting and the noise difference was = incredible. It made it much more difficult to pull a satisfactory key. = Ended up using ReVision FX De-Noise.. The higher quality shots keyed = perfectly and all the footage was shot same day, studio, talent, = lighting, DoP. It was only the debayer settings which screwed the = keying. Of course it depends on the footage and how it was shot, but thought I'd = throw this into the mix as it may be useful to some. Thanks Tim ___=20 Tim Clapham Director ___ LUXX 3D Animation Motion Graphics ___ web : luxx.com.au blog : helloluxx.com On 16/10/2012, at 11:51 AM, Phil Spitler wrote: > Thanks Brian. >=20 > We are delivering 1920x1080 but are doing some serious pushes on the = footage. >=20 > It seems like the scaling could be a big issue as I just rendered a 5k = clip and it is 3 times the speed as rendering the same clip at 1080 = (after scaling the footage). >=20 > I will look at the debayeing settings too to see what I can figure = out, >=20 > The reason I wanted to keep the files R3d was so that I could do the = color and keying with maximum information in the file. >=20 > More testing to come. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > Phil >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Phil Spitler | Creative Technologist | Bonfire Labs | t : = 415.394.8200 m : 415.571.3139 >=20 > Website | Facebook | LinkedIn >=20 > On Oct 15, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Brian Higgins wrote: >=20 >> Phil, what resolution is your deliverable? Jack is right on the = money. Just because you *can* debayer on the fly, doesn't mean you = should. Heck...if you're not doing push-ins and repos, you probably = don't even need to do a full debayer! If you have fast and large enough = storage, do the debayering when you do the conform and write out = DPX/TIFF/EXR sequences of what you need. You'll be much happier! >>=20 >> Here's a test for you to try if your deliverables are (only) HD like = mine are. It's somewhat footage dependent, but might be enlightening: = Load the same r3d file twice. Debayer the first copy at full 5K, then = debayer the second at half premium. Drop them both into 1920x1080 = comps, and scale them so they fill the HD frame. Now toggle between = them and see how much difference you can spot. I can sometimes see a = tiny, tiny sharpness improvement on the full-debayered version, but a = lot of the time I can't. Now put a little sharpening (should be = standard operating procedure on Red and Alexa footage) on both comps and = see if you can tell the difference. If you've got 200% blowups to deal = with or are mastering at greater than HD resolution you obviously need = the full debayer, but if you aren't, you might not. >>=20 >> As to your render times...have you tried rendering a chunk out of = RedCine? A full debayer should only take a few seconds per frame there, = even without a RedRocket. >>=20 >> $.02, >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe = wrote: >> Depending on what you are doing with the Red files it's sometimes = better to render it out as an image sequence, say 16 bit tiffs or = something similar so you computer isn't doing the debayer for every = frame while you are working with it. I find the only reasonable = explanation for sticking with the R3D data is so you can get at the raw = data at the initial stages should there be under exposure, over = exposure, etc. You can find detail that would otherwise be lost, but = really after that, why not convert it to a more AE friendly format.=20 >>=20 >> Jack Tunnicliffe >> Java Post Production >> www.javapost.ca >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Oct 15, 2012, at 6:09 PM, Phil Spitler = wrote: >>=20 >>> Wow, working with 5k HD Red footage in CS5.5 is REALLY painful. >>>=20 >>> Has this been improved in CS6?=20 >>>=20 >>> It must be the RED decoding that is taking the time as I use 5k = plates from our 3d guys without this issue at all. >>>=20 >>> I did a simple garbage matte / Primate key and resize and it is = saying 2.5 hours to render a 10 second clip. >>>=20 >>> Plus the machine is really un-responsive.... >>>=20 >>> This is on an 8 core Xeon with 16GB RAM running CS5.5 >>>=20 >>> Any idea? >>>=20 >>> Thanks >>>=20 >>> Phil >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Phil Spitler | Creative Technologist | Bonfire Labs | t : = 415.394.8200 m : 415.571.3139 >>>=20 >>> Website | Facebook | LinkedIn >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> brian higgins | creative director >> Sol Design >> 312.706.5500=20 >> higgins@soldesignfx.com >> soldesignfx.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6EAFE832-2343-4EDC-95D3-6914B4EE99D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1


___ 

Tim = Clapham
Director
___

LUXX
3D = Animation
Motion Graphics
___

web = : luxx.com.au
helloluxx.com


On 16/10/2012, at 11:51 AM, Phil Spitler wrote:

Thanks = Brian.

We are delivering 1920x1080 but are doing some = serious pushes on the footage.

It seems like = the scaling could be a big issue as I just rendered a 5k clip and it is = 3 times the speed as rendering the same clip at 1080 (after scaling the = footage).

I will look at the debayeing settings = too to see what I can figure out,

The reason I = wanted to keep the files R3d was so that I could do the color and keying = with maximum information in the file.

More = testing to = come.

Thanks.

Phil
=





signature1 Phil = Spitler  |  Creative Technologist   |  Bonfire Labs  |  t : 415.394.8200  m : = 415.571.3139

Website | Facebook | LinkedIn

On Oct 15, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Brian Higgins wrote:

Phil, what = resolution is your deliverable?  Jack is right on the money. =  Just because you *can* debayer on the fly, doesn't mean you = should.  Heck...if you're not doing push-ins and repos, you = probably don't even need to do a full debayer!  If you have fast = and large enough storage, do the debayering when you do the conform and = write out DPX/TIFF/EXR sequences of what you need.  You'll be much = happier!

Here's a test for you to try if your = deliverables are (only) HD like mine are. It's somewhat footage = dependent, but might be enlightening:  Load the same r3d file = twice.  Debayer the first copy at full 5K, then debayer the second = at half premium.  Drop them both into 1920x1080 comps, and scale = them so they fill the HD frame.  Now toggle between them and see = how much difference you can spot. I can sometimes see a tiny, tiny = sharpness improvement on the full-debayered version, but a lot of the = time I can't.  Now put a little sharpening (should be standard = operating procedure on Red and Alexa footage) on both comps and see = if you can tell the difference.  If you've got 200% blowups to deal = with or are mastering at greater than HD resolution you obviously need = the full debayer, but if you aren't, you might not.

As to your render times...have you tried rendering a = chunk out of RedCine? A full debayer should only take a few seconds per = frame there, even without a = RedRocket.

$.02,
Brian


On Mon, Oct = 15, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe <jack@javapost.ca> wrote:
Depending on what you are doing with the = Red files it's sometimes better to render it out as an image sequence, = say 16 bit tiffs or something similar so you computer isn't doing the = debayer for every frame while you are working with it. I find the only = reasonable explanation for sticking with the R3D data is so you can get = at the raw data at the initial stages should there be under exposure, = over exposure, etc. You can find detail that would otherwise be lost, = but really after that, why not convert it to a more AE friendly = format. 
=
Jack Tunnicliffe
Java Post Production
www.javapost.ca

=

On Oct 15, 2012, at 6:09 PM, Phil Spitler <phil@bonfirelabs.com> = wrote:

Wow, working with 5k HD Red footage in = CS5.5 is REALLY painful.

Has this been improved in = CS6? 

It must be the RED decoding that is = taking the time as I use 5k plates from our 3d guys without this issue = at all.

I did a simple garbage matte / Primate = key and resize and it is saying 2.5 hours to render a 10 second = clip.

Plus the machine is really = un-responsive....

This is on an 8 core Xeon = with 16GB RAM running CS5.5

Any = idea?

Thanks
=
Phil






Phil = Spitler  |  Creative Technologist   |  Bonfire Labs  |  t : 415.394.8200  m : 415.571.3139

Website | Facebook | LinkedIn





--
brian higgins | = creative director
Sol =  Design
soldesignfx.com



=


= --Apple-Mail=_6EAFE832-2343-4EDC-95D3-6914B4EE99D7--