Return-Path: Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.8] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 4901169 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 04:28:41 +0100 Received: from oxbaltgw54.schlund.de (oxbaltgw54.schlund.de [172.19.246.178]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Mhekt-1TvWda2uZ9-00Mig4; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 04:31:57 +0100 Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 04:31:57 +0100 (CET) From: "mylenium@mylenium.de" Reply-To: "mylenium@mylenium.de" To: After Effects Mail List Message-ID: <482291101.1871335.1353036717548.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1und1.de> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [AE] [OT] Intel's 50-core Xeon Phi Processor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1871334_1091073536.1353036717487" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v6.20.7-Rev2 X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:6jxxp3z7bbGp1Fs3GhneU06xslyYvq2AxzbckWC7I+w otmIwPFP6Dg1f4h/W18ua6lFbB5L4qZlUVlaKQl+SO5c5vxm/9 7x8nxqHGWAinXgBHbnN+4xiNmQeHsTZnY24lWdIqfJrikQ9qTK 55wCJz52ETHhNYZBqtnHUgyljjWm+Xw9sdsQ5vF0l6ZSaKB5eF bhreFOHWnQL+SIQxpZaVxwV4oseHoVERuLqRyBng5aOXEqdhgd FhG7YT06wTSwgGlVs/n4zPHYaNCK6qpqN6lo9v61DvW61b/W9X ziDYI5A1KGmg7+R7Hjvm5mcwljleGzYqOy1sLf1HdGCKbl4eaQ UI6MqEKD0w0EDN69PbG5jlrFbi/PYKHikCDo6XM0D3pec1XE3z Tum7xFc61iq37j1GV0YsJGH8hYJFTV4f1RRXrJv7GgoGogczhl m5aSh ------=_Part_1871334_1091073536.1353036717487 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure what the fuss is about. Your normal Xeon processor has 8MB of L3 c= aches and you don't store image buffers in that, either. From what little reading= I have done on the Phi card, internally all memory management and syncing is handled by the processors themselves via ring buses and crossbar switches i= n groups of 2, 4 or 8 cores, but that only really includes the caches and the internal processing queue. Also by the time you would process data on the c= ard it would long be pre-segmented and unlike graphics cards, there would be no persistent buffers requiring extensive amounts of memory. The rest would be handled in the system memory and the beauty of it is that since the Phi car= d uses native x86/SSE etc. commands, there is no need for any extra data conversions or explicitly shuffling stuff around beyond what your system al= ready does, anyway. Of course on some level it still has similar requirements lik= e CUDA in terms of parallelizing stuff, but as Greg said, the biggest issue f= or the card at this point will be limited PCI transfer speeds. That's why prim= arily it will make inroads in science first most likely as well as 3D renderers t= hat already to data segmentation/ bucketing/ tiling and by comparison the proce= ssing outweighs the data transfers. I wouldn't expect it to be relevant for anyth= ing else soon. Where intel will take this technology is another question consid= ering how they have been mucking around for years, but generally I would not expe= ct them to follow the same road that CUDA has. Mylenium [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] ----------------------------------------- www.mylenium.de Steve Oakley hat am 15. November 2012 um 23:15 geschrieben: > my math says each CPU would get 161mb of RAM.... despite what intel says, > writing code to work well in this environment would not really be much > different than CUDA. you certainly could not run an OS + App + App data o= n > each core. thats fantasy. you could probably write a renderer to fit into= that > space and have some image buffers.... but when you watch AE eat a couple = gigs > for large deep color renders, their model pretty much doesn't work. At be= st, > you instead would need to MP render each frame, tiling it up and feeding = each > CPU a chunk of it. very different than what intel is pitching. you'd need= more > like 64gb or 128gb to really make it work they way they say. >=20 >=20 > S >=20 > On Nov 15, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Byron Nash < byronnash@gmail.com > > wrote: >=20 >=20 > > > So, in theory would a multi-threaded renderer like Mental Ray be= able > > > to utilize all those coprocessor cores? If so, I imagine you wou= ld > > > need a lot of RAM in the machine. > >=20 > >=20 > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Greg Balint > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, but the 8Gb on-board can be accessed at 320Gb/= s > > > > > whilst the rest of your System RAM can only be accessed by > > > > > those cores on the PCIe 2.0 card at 16GB/sec. Sounds like = a > > > > > bottleneck, but current modules Peak Transfer Rates are on= ly > > > > > around 17Gb/s tops, and that's for DDR3-2133 RAM. The bigg= est > > > > > issue would be considering the RAM bus would also be the = same > > > > > bus used for Storage writing and reading, and instruction > > > > > transit. and what memory controller would control those 50= CPUs > > > > > access to your RAM through your PCIe 2.0 bus.. sounds like= it > > > > > could be a nightmare for applications such as AE with cons= tant > > > > > I/O and instructions being sent.. > > >=20 > > > I'd hope one day I can just go purchase a $1500-$2000 card, an= d > > > basically get an internal render-farm.. but I think software would ne= ed to > > > catch up to that concept and it would need to go mainstream before we= 'd > > > really see a lot of applications for it.. I do see the potential, an= d it > > > seems to pretty much be a given-future.. "Core-Boards" will probably = end > > > up being the next step up from the OnBoard Chips. In the future, it'= ll > > > all be about OC'ing the CoreBoard and the Motherboard being the contr= oller > > > of that CoreBoard. > > >=20 > > > Just think.. at some point, there'll probably be configurable = RAM > > > options on the CoreBoards, and then we'd need Integrated Video for th= ese > > > CoreBoards.. > > >=20 > > > Basically building a full System Build on a Board that goes in= your > > > Full System Build... then you can Cross-fire those boards together in= one > > > Case.. > > >=20 > > > Turtles all the way down... > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ///Greg Balint > > > //Art Director / Motion Graphics Designer > > > /321.514.4839 > > > delRAZOR.com/ > > >=20 > > > On 11/15/2012 9:58 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de > > > wrote: > > >=20 > > > > > > > It's my understanding that it will appe= ar as > > > > > > > just another processor to the system and thus will > > > > > > > share the system's memory. Those 8GB are more or l= ess > > > > > > > just its internal caches. > > > >=20 > > > > Mylenium > > > >=20 > > > > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > www.mylenium.de > > > >=20 > > > > mike cardeiro > > > > hat am 15. November 2012 um 15:32 > > > > geschrieben: > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > sounds cool...wonder why they are= only > > > > > > > > > allocating 8gb of ram (did you ever think you= 'd > > > > > > > > > see the day when you said *only* 8 gigs of ra= m) > > > > >=20 > > > > > Mike Cardeiro > > > > > Editor/Animator/Compositor > > > > > D4 Creative Group - Philadelphia, PA > > > > >=20 > > > > > http://www.michaelcardeiro.com/resume/ > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/mcardeiro > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= 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---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > From: Satya G Meka (Lists) > > > > > > > > > > > > To: After Effects Mail List > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AE] [OT] Intel's 50-core Xeon Phi Proce= ssor > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Fellow Ae-Listers, > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > You might find this interesting. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > http://www.drdobbs.com/parallel/intels-50-core-xeo= n-phi-the-new-era-of-i/240105810?donkey > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > I do wish it competes directly with GPUs in the > > > > > > future. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Satya. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > >=20 > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > >=20 > > >=20 ------=_Part_1871334_1091073536.1353036717487 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20 =20
Not sure what the fuss is about. Your normal Xeon processor has 8MB of L= 3 caches and you don't store image buffers in that, either. From what l= ittle reading I have done on the Phi card, internally all memory management= and syncing is handled by the processors themselves via ring buses and cro= ssbar switches in groups of 2, 4 or 8 cores, but that only really includes = the caches and the internal processing queue. Also by the time you would pr= ocess data on the card it would long be pre-segmented and unlike graphics c= ards, there would be no persistent buffers requiring extensive amounts of m= emory. The rest would be handled in the system memory and the beauty of it = is that since the Phi card uses native x86/SSE etc. commands, there is no n= eed for any extra data conversions or explicitly shuffling stuff around bey= ond what your system already does, anyway. Of course on some level it still= has similar requirements like CUDA in terms of parallelizing stuff, but as= Greg said, the biggest issue for the card at this point will be limited PC= I transfer speeds. That's why primarily it will make inroads in science= first most likely as well as 3D renderers that already to data segmentatio= n/ bucketing/ tiling and by comparison the processing outweighs the data tr= ansfers. I wouldn't expect it to be relevant for anything else soon. Wh= ere intel will take this technology is another question considering how the= y have been mucking around for years, but generally I would not expect them= to follow the same road that CUDA has.
=20
 
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Mylenium
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=20
[Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]
-----------------------------------------
www.mylenium.de
=20

Steve Oakley <steveo@practicali.com> hat am 15. November 20= 12 um 23:15 geschrieben:
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my math says each CPU would get 161mb of RAM.... despite what intel say= s, writing code to work well in this environment would not really be much d= ifferent than CUDA. you certainly could not run an OS + App + App data on e= ach core. thats fantasy. you could probably write a renderer to fit into th= at space and have some image buffers.... but when you watch AE eat a couple= gigs for large deep color renders, their model pretty much doesn't wor= k. At best, you instead would need to MP render each frame, tiling it up an= d feeding each CPU a chunk of it. very different than what intel is pitchin= g. you'd need more like 64gb or 128gb to really make it work they way t= hey say.=20
 
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S
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On Nov 15, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Byron Nash < byronnash@gmail.com> = wrote:
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So, in theory would a multi-threaded renderer like Mental Ray be abl= e to utilize all those coprocessor cores? If so, I imagine you would need a= lot of RAM in the machine.=20


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On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Greg Balint=20 <= greg@delrazor.com> wrote:
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Yes, but the 8Gb on-board can be accessed at 320Gb/s whilst the= rest of your System RAM can only be accessed by those cores on the PCIe 2.= 0 card at 16GB/sec. Sounds like a bottleneck, but current modules Peak Tran= sfer Rates are only around 17Gb/s tops, and that's for DDR3-2133 RAM. T= he biggest issue would be  considering the RAM bus would also be the s= ame bus used for Storage writing and reading, and instruction transit. and = what memory controller would control those 50 CPUs access to your RAM throu= gh your PCIe 2.0 bus.. sounds like it could be a nightmare for applications= such as AE with constant I/O and instructions being sent..=20
=20
I'd hope one day I can just go purchase a $1500-$2000= card, and basically get an internal render-farm.. but I think software wou= ld need to catch up to that concept and it would need to go mainstream befo= re we'd really see a lot of applications for it..  I do see the po= tential, and it seems to pretty much be a given-future.. "Core-Boards&#= 34; will probably end up being the next step up from the OnBoard Chips.= 0; In the future, it'll all be about OC'ing the CoreBoard and the M= otherboard being the controller of that CoreBoard.
=20
Just think.. at some point, there'll probably be conf= igurable RAM options on the CoreBoards, and then we'd need Integrated V= ideo for these CoreBoards.. =20
=20
Basically building a full System Build on a Board that go= es in your Full System Build... then you can Cross-fire those boards togeth= er in one Case..=20
=20
Turtles all the way down...


=20 
///Greg Balint
//Art Director / Motion Graphics Designer
/321.514.4839
delRAZOR.com/
=20
=20
On 11/15/2012 9:58 AM,=20 myl= enium@mylenium.de wrote:
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It's my understanding that it will appear as just anothe= r processor to the system and thus will share the system's memory. Thos= e 8GB are more or less just its internal caches.
=20
 
=20
Mylenium
=20
 
=20
[Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]=20
-----------------------------------------=20
=20 www.my= lenium.de
=20

mike cardeiro=20 = 0;mcardeiro@yahoo.com> hat am 15. November 2012 um 15:32 geschriebe= n:
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sounds cool...wonder why they are only allocating 8= gb of ram (did you ever think you'd see the day when you said *only* 8 = gigs of ram)
=20

=20
=20
Mike Cardeiro
Editor/Animator/Compositor =             = 60;  
D4 Creative Group - Philadelphia, PA   = ;
            =
= http://www.michaelcardeiro.com/resume/
http://www.youtube.com/user/mcar= deiro
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From: Satya G M= eka (Lists) <lis= ts@rowbyte.com>
To:= After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Thursday, Nove= mber 15, 2012 9:22 AM
Subje= ct: [AE] [OT] Intel's 50-core Xeon Phi Processor
<= /span>
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Fellow Ae-Listers,
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You might find this interesting.
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I do wish it competes directly with GPUs in the futu= re.
=20
 
=20
regards,
=20
Satya.
=20
 
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