Return-Path: Received: from mail-la0-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 4908725 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 05:44:10 +0100 Received: by mail-la0-f41.google.com with SMTP id m15so5607046lah.28 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:47:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=7gBF4BNSDiEJF2ntvQPR0qq3c+WNBDkPwxhnkg5pLQI=; b=AO5ulg50Cydvxtv0lXuIwmBBQELSYbomxcWvKYZ4b/IqYT2ZgtayFYnOnKWoVoi5vO R0AFbhkWFfRzKLR1N+Qf/NvC3XnKRJNjlEpa6sVHbb8jYyHwE5C2EJwRTVhwcKS5hWB7 DL7YTsWV2MFtUiA5cBdjM987W1gNAVsDZXlGcEOIUG54VQE32I3GFnqM6kGAjT+ka8B+ JRC/nfCaI7msyfitodyeuhGTxNYZ90LGOsuxs4xtEnbSDl7/Ts9HcZVl0/y+DnfLhE/E XXkg2QUT44NiEjSc/Warf1SXJ49Iht9A7NY95047fj3kPnGHIzMMFHd/EMLOonRofADO ZfOg== Received: by 10.152.111.68 with SMTP id ig4mr9843634lab.50.1353905268518; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:47:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.135.41 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:47:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Teddy Gage Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 23:47:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Arri flat To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04083b5196f07104cf5ea2a4 --f46d04083b5196f07104cf5ea2a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They haven't even hired a colorist yet. They weren't aware of any of these issues until I brought them up. I think it's the director's first feature. He's also editing it. On a four year old iMac. In full res with this Arri footage. I honestly don't know how. Learn as you go, I guess. -T On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Jonathan Penzner wrote= : > Teddy, > > My suggestion is to get in touch with the person on the project who is > doing the final grading and see what they want. I doubt the editor is goi= ng > to know. The person doing the grading will be tweaking the various source= s > to make them all look like they are part of the same shot. FCP doesn't > natively know anything about the Alexa color space. There's information o= n > the ARRI site about how to work with luts, create your own, and so on. > There's also a forum on the site that may be able to get you some answers= . > > Jonathan > > > On Nov 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > > Also wondering, how does FCP handle the arri footage color space? does th= e > output in FCP natively look like the AE footage with the LUT applied? Or > would all the footage need to have the LUT applied in color correction? > Should I work with the LUT applied and then disable for render? or does t= he > effect only work like a color space preview and not affect output? > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Jim Curtis wrote: > >> If you're just adding FX to select shots, they're likely going to want >> the same format they gave you, so it will intercut with the non-effected >> shots. >> >> As I mentioned, there is purportedly a path to ProRes from Windows, but = I >> haven't done it. I'm Mac: >> >> http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/30139 >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 25, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: >> >> These are all fantastic questions for the director / online editor >> that have not been addressed. This is my first time working with Arri >> footage so all this info is extremely helpful. It is made a bit more >> complicated by the fact that AE on PC cannot export ProRes. Worse comes = to >> worse I could export lossless visuals in 10bit QT and then transcode bac= k >> to prores on my MBP. Hopefully though I can export video gamma and they = can >> deal with it on their end. >> >> I am adding blood splatters, muzzle flashes, bullet holes and set >> extensions on a good deal of the footage, mostly sourced from the Video >> Copilot Action Essentials HD kit. There is a lot of tracking, cloning, a= nd >> roto as well. There is also a fair amount of particle work, but luckily = no >> CG on my end (that is being handled in LA). Do I need to apply any kind = of >> color space conversion on the stock footage, or would the LUT on the pla= tes >> bring them more in line with the stock footage? >> >> And lastly I have a few annoying questions about the LUT generator >> >> Should I choose legal or extended for Range input / output? It's an indi= e >> film so I don't think it's going out for broadcast. This has to do with >> black level? >> >> normalized or photometric scaling? My gut says photometric >> >> Do I need to alter dimension or bits for the LUT output? >> >> On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Brian Higgins = wrote: >> >>> No no no...you most likely want to convert the LogC footage into video >>> gamma color space. We used to call this "linear," ala Log->Lin, but li= near >>> these days generally means scene-referred linear, which is another ball= of >>> wax entirely. Go here, go to the post-production section, and make an = AE >>> LUT: >>> >>> http://www.arri.com/camera/digital_cameras/tools/lut_generator/lut_gene= rator.html >>> >>> What are you doing to the footage? Adding some CG/VFX? Adding >>> graphics? Color correcting? And what is your client expecting as a >>> deliverable? If you need to deliver LogC files back, then you'll need = to >>> work in a color space with high enough bit depth to hold the ~14 stops = of >>> range in that source file. I suggest working in float either way. If = they >>> want LogC ProRes files, add a LUT at the end to squish your work back d= own. >>> If you're going this route, test it and get it working before you do an= y >>> other work on the project. If they're fine with getting video gamma im= ages >>> from you, you can deliver as DPX or DNXHD or whatever. >>> >>> $.02, >>> Brian >>> >>> -- >>> *brian higgins | creative director >>> Sol Design >>> 312.706.5500 >>> higgins@soldesignfx.com >>> soldesignfx.com >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Teddy Gage wrote= : >>> >>>> OK that helps. That's sort of what I was doing already- but I'd really >>>> like to avoid having to work on the effects directly in c-log, it's go= nna >>>> be a huge headache with color space conversion and preview. I was thin= king >>>> maybe a round trip through dnxHD 10-bit may be the answer. The final >>>> deliverables are going to be HD5 for broadcast as far as I can tell, a= nd >>>> maybe a DCP. Looks like I need to have another conversation with the >>>> director and online editor to figure out this workflow and how they're >>>> doing the color correct. I wish they'd just shot dnxhd in the first pl= ace... >>>> -TG >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Jim Curtis wrote: >>>> >>>>> I touched on this already, but what I've done is to put a first >>>>> instance of levels on the clips or an adjustment layer to get the lev= els on >>>>> a WFM in the ballpark of 1-100. Then, I add a second instance of oth= er >>>>> plugs (I like Frishchluft FL Curves best) for fine tuning. >>>>> >>>>> What you render to depends on where you're going. I was doing >>>>> broadcast spots, so I rendered to ProRes422 (in RGB color space) and = made >>>>> MPEG2 for distribution via DG and ExtremeReach from those. >>>>> >>>>> To be honest, I don't know if that's a great method, but the footage >>>>> looks great, and I love the expanded dynamic range and the minimizing= of >>>>> clipping in the whites that I often see with lesser capture formats. >>>>> >>>>> Monitoring: I have a calibrated HP DreamColor display and a Sony >>>>> Trinitron CRT hooked up to a Kona for accurate monitoring. I use an = Apple >>>>> Cinema Display for my computer monitor, and I can attest that the ima= ges >>>>> are vastly different between the computer display and the broadcast >>>>> monitors. What looks right on the broadcast monitors is super-satura= ted on >>>>> the ACD (using the default Cinema HD Apple profile - not flat). >>>>> >>>>> You can check yourself by looking at the scopes in Ae bundled Color >>>>> Finesse, if you don't have any other scopes available. Or, you can c= heck >>>>> your work by using the scopes in Pr, if you have that. I run Synthet= ic >>>>> Apps Test Gear full-time in Ae. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure you're aware that home HDTVs have picture settings that alte= r >>>>> the contrast, saturation, etc. Whether your HDTV gives you an accura= te >>>>> look depends on many settings and the hardware feeding your HDMI sign= al. >>>>> But, if that's all you have, then see if your output compares favora= bly to >>>>> what you watch on TV. If it looks right, maybe it is right. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 25, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ok looks like it is 4444, 276 mbps. I wasn't aware the arri encoded >>>>> directly to prores so that solves one problem, namely what I thought = was a >>>>> bad transcode. Looks like these clips are direct from camera. >>>>> >>>>> Now what's the best way for this footage to make the round trip, >>>>> FX-wise, without destroying the integrity of the 10bit 4444? I'm thin= king: >>>>> >>>>> - convert to log c color space / 32bpc to work in. Match all FX >>>>> footage / roto / stock elements to the log c preview? >>>>> - render back out to lossless QTs in 10bit YUV from AE >>>>> - do I render in video color space or should I render out in the log = c >>>>> profile? >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an HD monitor, I have a high-end "graphics" monitor (the >>>>> eizo CG222, extremely flat response, color accurate, 99%+ of adobe RG= B) but >>>>> to get an accurate final preview I may throw it onto my HDTV (not ide= al, I >>>>> know, but at least should give me an idea what I'm looking at, right?= ) >>>>> >>>>> Any other tips / gotchas would be greatly appreciated. >>>>> -TG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Jim Curtis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You can tell if it's 422 or 4444 by looking at the clip info in the >>>>>> Ae Project pane, or by using Get Info in QT Player. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Alexa footage I've worked with (just three projects, so I'm no >>>>>> expert), the camera was connected to a cinedeck via 2 BNC cables, an= d the >>>>>> native footage was ProRes4444+, or IOW, no transcoding was done or >>>>>> necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it was recorded to ArriRaw and transcoded with settings "baked," >>>>>> you have been robbed of the post-production benefits of recording in= RAW. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 25, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> OK so j. Penzer said the arri is using log c color space. This is th= e >>>>>> answer I was looking for. Here's my concern. I am ingesting prores >>>>>> transcodes, not the original camera files. The histogram for this fo= otage >>>>>> in 32bpc is compressed on both sides and very clipped in the middle >>>>>> a) I am concerned the editor didn't do the transcodes properly. I'm >>>>>> not even sure whether they were converted to 8 bit 4:2:2 or 10bit 4:= 4:4. I >>>>>> am, unfortunately, one of the more tech savvy people on production. = Is >>>>>> there any way to figure this out? >>>>>> >>>>>> B) how should I handle final outputs? Should I use color space >>>>>> conversion back to log c on export so it's consistent in fcp? Does f= cp do >>>>>> this conversion automatically? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Animator & Editor >>>>> www.teddygage.com >>>>> Brooklyn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Animator & Editor >>>> www.teddygage.com >>>> Brooklyn >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Animator & Editor >> www.teddygage.com >> Brooklyn >> >> >> > > > -- > Animator & Editor > www.teddygage.com > Brooklyn > > > > *JONATHAN PENZNER* > SUNDANCE/REALTIME > VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION GRAPHICS =95 DESIGN > > | STUDIO 626 345-0285 | > | CELL 818 321-2890 | > > SUREAL@CHARTER.NET > > --=20 Animator & Editor www.teddygage.com Brooklyn --f46d04083b5196f07104cf5ea2a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They haven't even hired a colorist yet. They weren't aware of any o= f these issues until I brought them up. I think it's the director's= first feature. He's also editing it. On a four year old iMac. In full = res with this Arri footage. I honestly don't know how. Learn as you go,= I guess.

-T

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 5:43 PM, J= onathan Penzner <sureal@charter.net> wrote:
Teddy,

My= suggestion is to get in touch with the person on the project who is doing = the final grading and see what they want. I doubt the editor is going to kn= ow. The person doing the grading will be tweaking the various sources to ma= ke them all look like they are part of the same shot. FCP doesn't nativ= ely know anything about the Alexa color space. There's information on t= he ARRI site about how to work with luts, create your own, and so on. There= 's also a forum on the site that may be able to get you some answers.

Jonathan

On Nov 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, Teddy Gage wrote:

Also wondering, how does FCP handle the arri footage colo= r space? does the output in FCP natively look like the AE footage with the = LUT applied? Or would all the footage need to have the LUT applied in color= correction? Should I work with the LUT applied and then disable for render= ? or does the effect only work like a color space preview and not affect ou= tput?

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Jim Curtis = <= jpcurtis@me.com> wrote:
If you're just adding FX to select = shots, they're likely going to want the same format they gave you, so i= t will intercut with the non-effected shots.

As I mentio= ned, there is purportedly a path to ProRes from Windows, but I haven't = done it. =A0I'm Mac:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/30139




On Nov 25, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Teddy Gage wrote:

=A0=A0=A0 These are all fantastic questions for the direc= tor / online editor that have not been addressed. This is my first time wor= king with Arri footage so all this info is extremely helpful. It is made a = bit more complicated by the fact that AE on PC cannot export ProRes. Worse = comes to worse I could export lossless visuals in 10bit QT and then transco= de back to prores on my MBP. Hopefully though I can export video gamma and = they can deal with it on their end.=A0

I am adding blood splatters, muzzle flashes, bullet holes and set exten= sions on a good deal of the footage, mostly sourced from the Video Copilot = Action Essentials HD kit. There is a lot of tracking, cloning, and roto as = well. There is also a fair amount of particle work, but luckily no CG on my= end (that is being handled in LA). Do I need to apply any kind of color sp= ace conversion on the stock footage, or would the LUT on the plates bring t= hem more in line with the stock footage?

And lastly I have a few annoying questions about the LUT generator
<= br>Should I choose legal or extended for Range input / output? It's an = indie film so I don't think it's going out for broadcast. This has = to do with black level?

normalized or photometric scaling? My gut says photometric

Do I= need to alter dimension or bits for the LUT output?

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Brian Higgins <higgins@= soldesignfx.com> wrote:
No no no...you most likely want to convert t= he LogC footage into video gamma color space. =A0We used to call this "= ;linear," ala Log->Lin, but linear these days generally means scene= -referred linear, which is another ball of wax entirely. =A0Go here, go to = the post-production section, and make an AE LUT:

Wh= at are you doing to the footage? =A0Adding some CG/VFX? =A0Adding graphics?= =A0Color correcting? =A0 And what is your client expecting as a deliverabl= e? =A0If you need to deliver LogC files back, then you'll need to work = in a color space with high enough bit depth to hold the ~14 stops of range = in that source file. =A0I suggest working in float either way. =A0If they w= ant LogC ProRes files, add a LUT at the end to squish your work back down. = If you're going this route, test it and get it working before you do an= y other work on the project. =A0If they're fine with getting video gamm= a images from you, you can deliver as DPX or DNXHD or whatever. =A0

$.02,
Brian

--=A0
= brian higgins | creative director
Sol =A0Design
312.706.5500
higgins@soldesignfx.com
soldesignfx.com


On Sun, No= v 25, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> w= rote:
OK that helps. That's sort of= what I was doing already- but I'd really like to avoid having to work = on the effects directly in c-log, it's gonna be a huge headache with co= lor space conversion and preview. I was thinking maybe a round trip through= dnxHD 10-bit may be the answer. The final deliverables are going to be HD5= for broadcast as far as I can tell, and maybe a DCP. Looks like I need to = have another conversation with the director and online editor to figure out= this workflow and how they're doing the color correct. I wish they'= ;d just shot dnxhd in the first place...
-TG


On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 12:= 58 PM, Jim Curtis <jpcurtis@me.com> wrote:
I touched on this already, but what I&#= 39;ve done is to put a first instance of levels on the clips or an adjustme= nt layer to get the levels on a WFM in the ballpark of 1-100. =A0Then, I ad= d a second instance of other plugs (I like Frishchluft FL Curves best) for = fine tuning.

What you render to depends on where you're going. =A0I w= as doing broadcast spots, so I rendered to ProRes422 (in RGB color space) a= nd made MPEG2 for distribution via DG and ExtremeReach from those.

To be honest, I don't know if that's a great method,= but the footage looks great, and I love the expanded dynamic range and the= minimizing of clipping in the whites that I often see with lesser capture = formats. =A0

Monitoring: =A0I have a calibrated HP DreamColor displa= y and a Sony Trinitron CRT hooked up to a Kona for accurate monitoring. =A0= I use an Apple Cinema Display for my computer monitor, and I can attest tha= t the images are vastly different between the computer display and the broa= dcast monitors. =A0What looks right on the broadcast monitors is super-satu= rated on the ACD (using the default Cinema HD Apple profile - not flat). = =A0

You can check yourself by looking at the scopes in Ae b= undled Color Finesse, if you don't have any other scopes available. =A0= Or, you can check your work by using the scopes in Pr, if you have that. = =A0I run Synthetic Apps Test Gear full-time in Ae.

I'm sure you're aware that home HDTVs have pict= ure settings that alter the contrast, saturation, etc. =A0Whether your HDTV= gives you an accurate look depends on many settings and the hardware feedi= ng your HDMI signal. =A0But, if that's all you have, then see if your o= utput compares favorably to what you watch on TV. =A0If it looks right, may= be it is right.




O= n Nov 25, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

ok looks like it is 4444, 276 mbps. I wasn't aware the arri enco= ded directly to prores so that solves one problem, namely what I thought wa= s a bad transcode. Looks like these clips are direct from camera.

Now what's the best way for this footage to make the round trip, FX= -wise, without destroying the integrity of the 10bit 4444? I'm thinking= :

- convert to log c color space / 32bpc to work in. Match all FX footage= / roto / stock elements to the log c preview?
- render back out to loss= less QTs in 10bit YUV from AE
- do I render in video color space or sho= uld I render out in the log c profile?

I don't have an HD monitor, I have a high-end "graphics" = monitor (the eizo CG222, extremely flat response, color accurate, 99%+ of a= dobe RGB) but to get an accurate final preview I may throw it onto my HDTV = (not ideal, I know, but at least should give me an idea what I'm lookin= g at, right?)

Any other tips / gotchas would be greatly appreciated.
-TG


On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Jim Curt= is <jpcurtis@me.com> wrote:
You can = tell if it's 422 or 4444 by looking at the clip info in the Ae Project = pane, or by using Get Info in QT Player.

The Alexa footage I've worked with (just three projects,= so I'm no expert), the camera was connected to a cinedeck via 2 BNC ca= bles, and the native footage was ProRes4444+, or IOW, no transcoding was do= ne or necessary. =A0

If it was recorded to ArriRaw and transcoded with setti= ngs "baked," you have been robbed of the post-production benefits= of recording in RAW.


On Nov 25, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

OK so j. Penzer said the arri is using= log c color space. This is the answer I was looking for. Here's my con= cern. I am ingesting prores transcodes, not the original camera files. The = histogram for this footage in 32bpc is compressed on both sides and very cl= ipped in the middle
a) I am concerned the editor didn't do the transcodes properly. I'm= not even sure whether they were converted to 8 bit 4:2:2 or 10bit 4:4:4. I= am, unfortunately, one of the more tech savvy people on production. Is the= re any way to figure this out?

B) how should I handle final =A0outputs? Should I use color = space conversion back to log c on export so it's consistent in fcp? Doe= s fcp do this conversion automatically?=A0

Thanks!<= /span>





--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com Brooklyn





--
Animator & Ed= itor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn




<= /div>






--
Animator & Ed= itor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn





--
Animator & Editor
<= span style>www.tedd= ygage.com
Brooklyn


<= div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<= span style=3D"font-size:11px">
JONATHAN PENZNER=
SUNDANCE/REALTIME
VIDEO EDITING = =95 MOTION GRAPHICS =95 DESIGN

<= /div>
<= font size=3D"3">|=A0STUDIO 626 345-0285=A0= |
|=A0CELL = 818 321-2890=A0|

<= /div>
<= font size=3D"3">SUREAL@CHARTER.NET




--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn

--f46d04083b5196f07104cf5ea2a4--