Return-Path: Received: from toroondcbmts05-srv.bellnexxia.net ([207.236.237.39] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4964476 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:49:42 +0100 Received: from toip34-bus.srvr.bell.ca ([67.69.240.35]) by toroondcbmts05-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20130201185523.XFOU27859.toroondcbmts05-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip34-bus.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 13:55:23 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: As4BAIgHDFGuXauV/2dsb2JhbAANOIN3glGvRAGJN4EsAYFkAQEBAwEjJgUwCwsHESAKAgIhEBUDDgYICxYEAgEEh14DCQ2vRnGIew0HiU+MGXwSgxQyYQOIZotagVeBHYohAgGIKQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,579,1355115600"; d="scan'208,217";a="407529952" Received: from bas3-montreal50-2925374357.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.2.11]) ([174.93.171.149]) by toip34-bus.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2013 13:55:20 -0500 From: Chris Bobotis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-77--814369174 Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 13:55:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) --Apple-Mail-77--814369174 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it = =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, = be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the = 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words = you need to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant = artists, some with and some without any formal training. The ones = without any formal training had still put in the time.=20 Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach = others just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end = result is what counts, at least to me. Cheers, Chris mettle.com On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: > I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I just = took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of = the defining characteristics of success in this business are awareness = and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can = also have been come by naturally.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >=20 >> I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - either = an education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of = the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain manner or = an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually = never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an = argument about that one can make up for the other, but I would still = consider a certain level of education important. Even if you are an = artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps = if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. = And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical = process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a = well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an "artist"... >> =20 >> Mylenium >> =20 >> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 >> -----------------------------------------=20 >> www.mylenium.de >>=20 >> sean cusson hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 = geschrieben: >>> I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In my = opinion, if you create something that another person sees value in then = you are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone = possibly try to define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary = to achieve said title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have = only gone to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a = decent living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to = pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say = you are not an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated = as the first version of AE itself. >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>=20 >>>> "When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago"...=20 >>>> =20 >>>> You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the retirement home = computer, would you?=20 >>>> =20 >>>> You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather...=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < = mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote:=20 >>>>> I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D graphics = background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the past. = People just take affordable equipment or things like discounted = education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There = wasn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D = artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could = somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have = been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 = bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks = Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we = have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time to = learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many = ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with = even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" = people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it = still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight line with a = pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in = other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as = important or even more important than just hacking around on the = computer or doing odd things with your digital camera.... >>>>> =20 >>>>> Mylenium >>>>> =20 >>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 >>>>> -----------------------------------------=20 >>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>=20 >>>>> James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 08:37 geschrieben: >>>>>> You are describing film/video Production in general. And = film/video production is now just another literacy, like writing, that = people grow up with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start = doing it, and we are awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount = of incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's were. >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> James >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all = sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at = being "just another software" that is being used by more people with no = talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just = the way it is, sadly... >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> Mylenium >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------- =20 >>>>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 06:29 geschrieben: =20 >>>>>>> > Darn- Totally missed it. =20 >>>>>>> > I've been thinking about the AE history lately. I was at a = pottery =20 >>>>>>> > workshop, and =20 >>>>>>> > the teacher kept telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do = that!" =20 >>>>>>> > To say you don't remember. =20 >>>>>>> > This got me thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that = anal, =20 >>>>>>> > secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online = any time =20 >>>>>>> > day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a = TSassoon, =20 >>>>>>> > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of = that, =20 >>>>>>> > AE took off, attracted geniuses from all over, and and made = history of =20 >>>>>>> > all of the old guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end = =20 >>>>>>> > equipment. =20 >>>>>>> > That was a dazzling era. =20 >>>>>>> > Of course, nothing this great lasts. =20 >>>>>>> > I've been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics of = a =20 >>>>>>> > worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last = projects I =20 >>>>>>> > worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast =20= >>>>>>> > turnaround network news show, and the dude did certain things = wrong =20 >>>>>>> > then sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get the =20= >>>>>>> > producers on t =20 >>>>>>> > he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans = to the =20 >>>>>>> > creative director. But back to the point. Way back in the = early =20 >>>>>>> > beginnings, what a classy group. =20 >>>>>>> > =20 >>>>>>> > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> = wrote: =20 >>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>> > >> In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list = yet: =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> REGISTER NOW: http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an = interactive history of =20 >>>>>>> > >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We welcome = questions from the =20 >>>>>>> > >> audience via the chat pod. =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> -DaveS =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>> > >> To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>> > > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>> > > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>>>> > =20 >>>>>>> > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Animator & Editor=20 >>>> www.teddygage.com=20 >>>> Brooklyn >> =20 >=20 Cheers, Chris Mettle.com Skype: Mettlecom --Apple-Mail-77--814369174 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 In my = experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it = =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, = be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the = 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words = you need to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant = artists, some with and some without any formal training. The ones = without any formal training had still put in the = time. 

Some take to conventional teaching = methods and a cartesian approach others just do not. I cannot say one is = better than the other. The end result is what counts, at least to = me.

Cheers,
Chris
mettle.com
On 2013-02-01, at = 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote:

I get it and agree with you = that education is always important. I just took issue with anyone = actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of the defining = characteristics of success in this business are awareness and talent. = Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can also have = been come by = naturally. 



On = 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de = wrote:

I = think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - either an = education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of = the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain manner or = an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually = never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an = argument about that one can make up for the other, but I would still = consider a certain level of education important. Even if you are an = artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps = if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. = And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical = process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a = well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an = "artist"...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 
www.mylenium.de

sean = cusson <scusson@mac.com> = hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben:
I think trying to define the word "artist" is = pretty useless. In my opinion, if you create something that another = person sees value in then you are an artist. Art is completely = subjective so how could anyone possibly try to define the term "artist" = or the requirements necessary to achieve said title? I know tons of = people (including myself) who have only gone to high school and yet have = somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent living for themselves. There = are definitely advantages to pursuing an art education (in whatever = discipline you choose) but to say you are not an artist if you don't = have formal training is as antiquated as the first version of AE = itself.
 

On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 = AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

"When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years = ago"... 
 
You wouldn't happen to be typing = this from the retirement home computer, would you? 
 
You're certainly grumpy = enough to be a grandfather... 

Sen= t from my iPad

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: 
I tend to see it from a different angle, coming = from a 3D graphics background. I don't think anyone was actually = excluded in the past. People just take affordable equipment or things = like discounted education versions for granted these days, luxuries we = never had. There wasn't even something like Blender around when I = started out as an 3D artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted = hard enough you could somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how = expensive they may have been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI = workstation and another 70000 bucks Power Animator license, obviously; = more like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). And instead of the annual = upgrade death spiral we have now, they got an update every 2 years and = you actually had time to learn them and hone your skills and save the = money. It works in many ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how = many people struggle with even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if = it's just a "literacy" people can pick up or it produces more talent in = any way... To me, it still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a = straight line with a pencil probably shouldn't call themselves = "motiongraphics artist". Or in other words: I consider a classical = training/ education just as important or even more important than just = hacking around on the computer or doing odd things with your digital = camera....
 
Mylenium
 
= [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 
www.mylenium.de

James = Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 08:37 geschrieben:
You are = describing film/video Production in general. And film/video production = is now just another literacy, like writing, that people grow up with. = So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start doing it, and we are = awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount of = incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's = were.
 
James
 

On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:

You're talking like people at the retirement = home getting all sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE = has arrived at being "just another software" that is being used by more = people with no talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately = know it. It's just the way it is, = sadly...
 
Mylenium
 
[P= our Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]   
-------------------------= ----------------   
www.mylenium.de

Jim = Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 = um 06:29 geschrieben:   
> Darn- Totally = missed it.   
> I've been thinking = about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery   
> workshop, and   
> the teacher kept = telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do that!"   
> To say you don't = remember.   
> This got me = thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that anal,   
> secretiveness was = the polar opposite and you could go online any time   
> day or night, and = a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a TSassoon,   
> or a Brian = Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of that,   
> AE took off, = attracted geniuses from all over, and and made history of   
> all of the old = guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end   
> equipment.   
> That was a = dazzling era.   
> Of course, nothing = this great lasts.   
> I've been at this = long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a   
> worker by just = looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects I   
> worked in was = unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast   
> turnaround network = news show, and the dude did certain things wrong   
> then sneakily made = layers invisible. All designed to get the   
> producers on = t   
> he phone to get = him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to the   
> creative director. = But back to the point. Way back in the early   
> beginnings, what a = classy group.   
>   
> > On Jan 30, = 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> wrote:   
> >   
> >> In case = this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list yet:   
> >>   
> >> ASK A = VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects   
> >>   
> >> Thursday, = January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST   
> >>   
> >> REGISTER = NOW:   http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd   
> >>   
> >> About 12 = hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history = of   
> >> AE, = including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions from the   
> >> audience = via the chat pod.   
> >>   
> >> = -DaveS   
> >>   
> >>   
> >>   
> >> +---End = of message---+   
> >> To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
> >   
> >   
> > +---End of = message---+   
> > To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
>   
> +---End of = message---+   
> To unsubscribe = send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>

 


-- 
Animator & Editor 
www.teddygage.com 


= --Apple-Mail-77--814369174--