Return-Path: Received: from toroondcbmts06-srv.bellnexxia.net ([207.236.237.40] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4964571 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:53:58 +0100 Received: from toip54-bus.srvr.bell.ca ([67.69.240.140]) by toroondcbmts06-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20130201205944.JOVJ21919.toroondcbmts06-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip54-bus.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 15:59:44 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: As4BAMAfDFGuXauV/2dsb2JhbAANOIJJgS6CUa9GAYk2gSwBgWQBAQEDASMmBTsLBwoEAQEBIAEGAwICIRAVAwYIBggLFgQCAQSHXgMJDa85cYh2DQeJT4wZfBEBgxQyYQOIZotagVeBHYohAgGIKYFR X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,579,1355115600"; d="scan'208,217";a="318768230" Received: from bas3-montreal50-2925374357.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.2.11]) ([174.93.171.149]) by toip54-bus.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2013 15:59:39 -0500 From: Chris Bobotis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-79--806913141 Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 15:59:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) --Apple-Mail-79--806913141 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Age old argument Jim... nature versus nurture. I am definitely in the = nurture camp. Nothing like positive re-inforcement and the right = environment to encourage a budding artist.=20 Personally, I used to resent it when people would say that I was to = lucky to be born with the gift to draw, paint or sculpt the way I did... = I would assure them that this only came after much time and effort and = the positive reaction and encouragement I would get from people that saw = my work. Where there is a will there is a way... many just do not want = it enough to put in the time.=20 I agree that some physical conditions can help but ultimately I have = seen similar traits in very talented people in various disciplines. One = of these traits is an uncanny ability to focus on the =CB=98task=CB=98 = at hand... in sports they call it being in the zone etc. etc. There are = more of course. =20 Again, I am much more in the nurture camp and everything that I have = seen and experienced (first hand) to date just re-enforces that. That = said, I am open... Cheers, Chris mettle.com On 2013-02-01, at 3:36 PM, Jim Tierney wrote: > >> One way or another you need to put in the time > =20 > True, but some folks have a natural gift that requires less time to = develop. Just as someone who is 6=E2=80=994 and stocky has an athletic = advantage over someone that=E2=80=99s 5=E2=80=996 and skinny, I think = most folks have brains that are wired to excel more readily at some = things than others=E2=80=A6 be it art, mathematics, or whatever. But = hard work and perseverance are still necessary to make the most of = whatever gifts you have. > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > Jim > ---------------=20 > Jim Tierney > President > Digital Anarchy > =20 > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On = Behalf Of Chris Bobotis > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 10:55 AM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects > =20 > In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it = =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, = be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the = 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words = you need to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant = artists, some with and some without any formal training. The ones = without any formal training had still put in the time.=20 > =20 > Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach = others just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end = result is what counts, at least to me. > =20 > Cheers, > Chris > mettle.com > On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: >=20 >=20 > I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I just = took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of = the defining characteristics of success in this business are awareness = and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can = also have been come by naturally.=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >=20 >=20 > I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - either = an education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of = the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain manner or = an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually = never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an = argument about that one can make up for the other, but I would still = consider a certain level of education important. Even if you are an = artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps = if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. = And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical = process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a = well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an "artist"... > =20 > Mylenium > =20 > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 > -----------------------------------------=20 > www.mylenium.de >=20 > sean cusson hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 = geschrieben: > I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In my = opinion, if you create something that another person sees value in then = you are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone = possibly try to define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary = to achieve said title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have = only gone to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a = decent living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to = pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say = you are not an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated = as the first version of AE itself. > =20 > =20 > On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >=20 >=20 > "When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago"...=20 > =20 > You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the retirement home = computer, would you?=20 > =20 > You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather...=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < = mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote:=20 > I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D graphics = background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the past. = People just take affordable equipment or things like discounted = education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There = wasn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D = artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could = somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have = been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 = bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks = Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we = have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time to = learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many = ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with = even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" = people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it = still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight line with a = pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in = other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as = important or even more important than just hacking around on the = computer or doing odd things with your digital camera.... > =20 > Mylenium > =20 > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 > -----------------------------------------=20 > www.mylenium.de >=20 > James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 08:37 geschrieben: > You are describing film/video Production in general. And film/video = production is now just another literacy, like writing, that people grow = up with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start doing it, and = we are awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount of = incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for talent = you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the trade = off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's were. > =20 > James > =20 > =20 > On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >=20 >=20 > You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all = sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at = being "just another software" that is being used by more people with no = talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just = the way it is, sadly... > =20 > Mylenium > =20 > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 > ----------------------------------------- =20 > www.mylenium.de >=20 > Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 06:29 = geschrieben: =20 > > Darn- Totally missed it. =20 > > I've been thinking about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery =20= > > workshop, and =20 > > the teacher kept telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do = that!" =20 > > To say you don't remember. =20 > > This got me thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that anal, =20= > > secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online any = time =20 > > day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a = TSassoon, =20 > > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of that, =20= > > AE took off, attracted geniuses from all over, and and made history = of =20 > > all of the old guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end =20 > > equipment. =20 > > That was a dazzling era. =20 > > Of course, nothing this great lasts. =20 > > I've been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a =20= > > worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects = I =20 > > worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast =20 > > turnaround network news show, and the dude did certain things wrong = =20 > > then sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get the =20 > > producers on t =20 > > he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to = the =20 > > creative director. But back to the point. Way back in the early =20 > > beginnings, what a classy group. =20 > > =20 > > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> wrote: =20= > > > =20 > > >> In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list yet: = =20 > > >> =20 > > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects =20 > > >> =20 > > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST =20 > > >> =20 > > >> REGISTER NOW: http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd =20 > > >> =20 > > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive = history of =20 > > >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions = from the =20 > > >> audience via the chat pod. =20 > > >> =20 > > >> -DaveS =20 > > >> =20 > > >> =20 > > >> =20 > > >> +---End of message---+ =20 > > >> To unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> = =20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > +---End of message---+ =20 > > > To unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> = =20 > > =20 > > +---End of message---+ =20 > > To unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Animator & Editor=20 > www.teddygage.com=20 > Brooklyn > =20 > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > Chris > Mettle.com > Skype: Mettlecom >=20 >=20 > =20 Cheers, Chris Mettle.com Skype: Mettlecom --Apple-Mail-79--806913141 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Age old argument Jim... nature versus nurture. I am = definitely in the nurture camp. Nothing like positive re-inforcement and = the right environment to encourage a budding = artist. 

Personally, I used to resent it when = people would say that I was to lucky to be born with the gift to draw, = paint or sculpt the way I did... I would assure them that this only came = after much time and effort and the positive reaction and encouragement I = would get from people that saw my work. Where there is a will there is a = way... many just do not want it enough to put in the = time. 

I agree that some physical = conditions can help but ultimately I have seen similar traits in very = talented people in various disciplines. One of these traits is an = uncanny ability to focus on the =CB=98task=CB=98 at hand... in sports = they call it being in the zone etc. etc. There are more of course. =   

Again, I am much more in the = nurture camp and everything that I have seen and experienced (first = hand) to date just re-enforces that. That said, I am = open...

Cheers,
Chris
On = 2013-02-01, at 3:36 PM, Jim Tierney wrote:

 One = way or another you need to put in the timeTrue, = but some folks have a natural gift that requires less time to develop. = Just as someone who is 6=E2=80=994 and stocky has an athletic advantage = over someone that=E2=80=99s 5=E2=80=996 and skinny, I think most folks = have brains that are wired to excel more readily at some things than = others=E2=80=A6 be it art, mathematics, or whatever. But hard work and = perseverance are still necessary to make the most of whatever gifts you = have.
Jim Tierney
From: After Effects Mail List = [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On Behalf Of Chris = Bobotis
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 = 10:55 AM
To: After Effects Mail = List
Subject: Re: [AE] The History of = Adobe After Effects
 
In my experience, I have = yet to meet an artist that has come by it =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way = or another you need to put in the time, be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or = =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the 10,000 hour rule applies to = art as much as anything else. In other words you need to put in the time = and effort. I have worked with brilliant artists, some with and some = without any formal training. The ones without any formal training had = still put in the time. 
 
Some take to = conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach others just do = not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end result is what = counts, at least to me.
On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson = wrote:
I get it and agree with = you that education is always important. I just took issue with anyone = actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of the defining = characteristics of success in this business are awareness and talent. = Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can also have = been come by naturally. 
 
On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 = AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:
=


I think my point is more that some people are devoid of = both - either an education that allows them to provide "art" = (craftsmanship/ tricks of the trade/ services whatever you wanna call = it) in a certain manner or an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" = - and those should actually never go near a computer or use certain = tools. You're not getting an argument about that one can make up for the = other, but I would still consider a certain level of education = important. Even if you are an artist who does wonderful paintings just = from his gut feeling, it helps if you can rationally explain some color = theory, if you get my meaning. And let's not lose sight that everything = we do is also a technical process no matter what. So if not on the artsy = side, at least a well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your = creation. If you wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could = producxe al lthe most beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take = any notice of you as an = "artist"...
[Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 
www.mylenium.de

sean cusson <
I think trying to define the word "artist" is = pretty useless. In my opinion, if you create something that another = person sees value in then you are an artist. Art is completely = subjective so how could anyone possibly try to define the term "artist" = or the requirements necessary to achieve said title? I know tons of = people (including myself) who have only gone to high school and yet have = somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent living for themselves. There = are definitely advantages to pursuing an art education (in whatever = discipline you choose) but to say you are not an artist if you don't = have formal training is as antiquated as the first version of AE = itself.
On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 = AM, Teddy Gage wrote:


"When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years = ago"... 
You wouldn't happen to be = typing this from the retirement home computer, would = you? 
You're = certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather... 
=

Sent from my = iPad
I tend to see it from a different = angle, coming from a 3D graphics background. I don't think anyone was = actually excluded in the past. People just take affordable equipment or = things like discounted education versions for granted these days, = luxuries we never had. There wasn't even something like Blender around = when I started out as an 3D artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only = wanted hard enough you could somehow manage to buy your tools no matter = how expensive they may have been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI = workstation and another 70000 bucks Power Animator license, obviously; = more like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). And instead of the annual = upgrade death spiral we have now, they got an update every 2 years and = you actually had time to learn them and hone your skills and save the = money. It works in many ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how = many people struggle with even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if = it's just a "literacy" people can pick up or it produces more talent in = any way... To me, it still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a = straight line with a pencil probably shouldn't call themselves = "motiongraphics artist". Or in other words: I consider a classical = training/ education just as important or even more important than just = hacking around on the computer or doing odd things with your digital = camera....
[Pour = Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 

James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. = Februar 2013 um 08:37 = geschrieben:
You are describing film/video = Production in general. And film/video production is now just another = literacy, like writing, that people grow up with. So, yes, there are a = lot of folks who just start doing it, and we are awash in = competition. There is a tremendous amount of incompetence. But = at the same time if you have the potential for talent you are not = excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the trade off. I find = today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's = were.
On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 = PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:


You're talking like people at the retirement home getting = all sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at = being "just another software" that is being used by more people with no = talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just = the way it is, sadly...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]   
-------------------------= ----------------   

Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. = Februar 2013 um 06:29 geschrieben:   
> Darn- Totally = missed it.   
> I've been thinking = about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery   
> workshop, and   
> the teacher kept = telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do that!"   
> To say you don't = remember.   
> This got me = thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that anal,   
> secretiveness was = the polar opposite and you could go online any time   
> day or night, and = a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a TSassoon,   
> or a Brian = Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of that,   
> AE took off, = attracted geniuses from all over, and and made history of   
> all of the old = guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end   
> equipment.   
> That was a = dazzling era.   
> Of course, nothing = this great lasts.   
> I've been at this = long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a   
> worker by just = looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects I   
> worked in was = unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast   
> turnaround network = news show, and the dude did certain things wrong   
> then sneakily made = layers invisible. All designed to get the   
> producers on = t   
> he phone to get = him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to the   
> creative director. = But back to the point. Way back in the early   
> beginnings, what a = classy group.   
>   
> > On Jan 30, = 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> wrote:   
> >   
> >> In case = this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list yet:   
> >>   
> >> ASK A = VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects   
> >>   
> >> Thursday, = January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST   
> >>   
> >> REGISTER = NOW:   http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd   
> >>   
> >> About 12 = hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history = of   
> >> AE, = including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions from the   
> >> audience = via the chat pod.   
> >>   
> >> = -DaveS   
> >>   
> >>   
> >>   
> >> +---End = of message---+   
> >> To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
> >   
> >   
> > +---End of = message---+   
> > To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
>   
> +---End of = message---+   
> To unsubscribe = send any message to < 

-- 
Animator & Editor 
  
Skype: = Mettlecom



= --Apple-Mail-79--806913141--