Return-Path: Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.171] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 4964581 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:01:20 +0100 Received: from oxbaltgw06.schlund.de (oxbaltgw06.schlund.de [172.19.246.12]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreu3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LeWGw-1Ul8UR3b5C-00qQLv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:07:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 22:07:05 +0100 (CET) From: "mylenium@mylenium.de" Reply-To: "mylenium@mylenium.de" To: After Effects Mail List Message-ID: <1752855135.70705.1359752825855.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1und1.de> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_70704_1865195582.1359752825763" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v- X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:kl1K90Z89kFVyS01RzbushWSncKS+uNl1O5EmR5kN8l ZQB95iYnmDdnKwSa3GN8N+iateczGMLeVUso6cC4pffpMwsszE zgipP44/JA6CSpLH34DKwLwRbTVfHYyzqfGT/7Q0ozRUqCEF5E uQ/ZCC3djLr+BcDi0GD9fMjcgSsd3/WEDIpbjkEIiMFfx/OfHe /vkaGrNa5z5O424rKr3HEYEScSAM4Sjs6m9xT1eYiJ3dtXOzW6 yEnxkL3setHKnG08c4UcPE0CvcvAgl5MKSqaPBCenzQxS5rTlZ fYFzKjvnKO+eYFnOWJNsjAHhLGgW6OEx8bpkzS+gZTSirNx0T6 XPCn1URmKfqZ0spgN6qxzs+q2SCiagVBizl3wmtk/el0FS8IDr YNoZRPenIxm315nPZ3uUuuhHmefSpQHdAY= ------=_Part_70704_1865195582.1359752825763 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think when it comes to that, it's more a case of recognizing certain tale= nts/ gifts in the first place and fostering and enhancing them by providing guidance... Anyway, this discussion is getting to esoteric and soon enough = we'll be debating what Neanderthals might have considered "art"... Mylenium [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] ----------------------------------------- www.mylenium.de Chris Bobotis hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 19:55 geschriebe= n: > In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it > =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, be= it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or > =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the 10,000 hour rule applies to ar= t as much as > anything else. In other words you need to put in the time and effort. I h= ave > worked with brilliant artists, some with and some without any formal trai= ning. > The ones without any formal training had still put in the time. >=20 > Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach othe= rs > just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end result is= what > counts, at least to me. >=20 > Cheers, > Chris > mettle.com > On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: >=20 >=20 > > > I get it and agree with you that education is always import= ant. > > > I just took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist.= I > > > think 2 of the defining characteristics of success in this busin= ess > > > are awareness and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced = by > > > education but can also have been come by naturally. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de > > wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > > > > > I think my point is more that some people are d= evoid > > > > > of both - either an education that allows them to provid= e > > > > > "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of the trade/ services what= ever > > > > > you wanna call it) in a certain manner or an "intuitive"= , > > > > > inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually > > > > > never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're no= t > > > > > getting an argument about that one can make up for the o= ther, > > > > > but I would still consider a certain level of education > > > > > important. Even if you are an artist who does wonderful > > > > > paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps if you can > > > > > rationally explain some color theory, if you get my mean= ing. > > > > > And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a > > > > > technical process no matter what. So if not on the artsy > > > > > side, at least a well-founded knowledge helps to let peo= ple > > > > > see your creation. If you wouldn't know how to get it on > > > > > YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most beautiful short= s and > > > > > the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as an > > > > > "artist"... > > >=20 > > > Mylenium > > >=20 > > > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > www.mylenium.de > > >=20 > > > sean cusson < scusson@mac.com > hat= am > > > 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben: > > >=20 > > > > > > > I think trying to define the word "artist" is prett= y > > > > > > > useless. In my opinion, if you create something tha= t > > > > > > > another person sees value in then you are an artist= . Art > > > > > > > is completely subjective so how could anyone possib= ly > > > > > > > try to define the term "artist" or the requirements > > > > > > > necessary to achieve said title? I know tons of peo= ple > > > > > > > (including myself) who have only gone to high schoo= l and > > > > > > > yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent l= iving > > > > > > > for themselves. There are definitely advantages to > > > > > > > pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline y= ou > > > > > > > choose) but to say you are not an artist if you don= 't > > > > > > > have formal training is as antiquated as the first > > > > > > > version of AE itself. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > "When I started out as an 3d > > > > > > > > > artist 19 years ago"... > > > > >=20 > > > > > You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the > > > > > retirement home computer, would you? > > > > >=20 > > > > > You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather.= .. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > >=20 > > > > > On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.= de" < > > > > > mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > I tend to see it = from > > > > > > > > > > > a different angle, coming from a 3D > > > > > > > > > > > graphics background. I don't think > > > > > > > > > > > anyone was actually excluded in the > > > > > > > > > > > past. People just take affordable > > > > > > > > > > > equipment or things like discounted > > > > > > > > > > > education versions for granted thes= e > > > > > > > > > > > days, luxuries we never had. There > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't even something like Blender > > > > > > > > > > > around when I started out as an 3D > > > > > > > > > > > artist 19 years ago. And still, if = you > > > > > > > > > > > only wanted hard enough you could > > > > > > > > > > > somehow manage to buy your tools no > > > > > > > > > > > matter how expensive they may have = been > > > > > > > > > > > (not talking about a 50000 bucks SG= I > > > > > > > > > > > workstation and another 70000 bucks > > > > > > > > > > > Power Animator license, obviously; = more > > > > > > > > > > > like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license= ). > > > > > > > > > > > And instead of the annual upgrade d= eath > > > > > > > > > > > spiral we have now, they got an upd= ate > > > > > > > > > > > every 2 years and you actually had = time > > > > > > > > > > > to learn them and hone your skills = and > > > > > > > > > > > save the money. It works in many wa= ys, > > > > > > > > > > > if you get my meaning.... And seein= g how > > > > > > > > > > > many people struggle with even the > > > > > > > > > > > simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if= it's > > > > > > > > > > > just a "literacy" people can pick u= p or > > > > > > > > > > > it produces more talent in any way.= .. To > > > > > > > > > > > me, it still comes down to this: Pe= ople, > > > > > > > > > > > who can't draw a straight line with= a > > > > > > > > > > > pencil probably shouldn't call > > > > > > > > > > > themselves "motiongraphics artist".= Or > > > > > > > > > > > in other words: I consider a classi= cal > > > > > > > > > > > training/ education just as importa= nt or > > > > > > > > > > > even more important than just hacki= ng > > > > > > > > > > > around on the computer or doing odd > > > > > > > > > > > things with your digital camera.... > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Mylenium > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > > > www.mylenium.de > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> ha= t am > > > > > > 1. Februar 2013 um 08:37 geschrieben: > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are > > > > > > > > > > > > > describing film/video Producti= on in > > > > > > > > > > > > > general. And film/video produc= tion > > > > > > > > > > > > > is now just another literacy, = like > > > > > > > > > > > > > writing, that people grow up w= ith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, there are a lot of fo= lks > > > > > > > > > > > > > who just start doing it, and w= e are > > > > > > > > > > > > > awash in competition. There is= a > > > > > > > > > > > > > tremendous amount of incompete= nce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But at the same time if you ha= ve > > > > > > > > > > > > > the potential for talent you a= re > > > > > > > > > > > > > not excluded by inaccessibilit= y to > > > > > > > > > > > > > tools. I'll take the trade off= . I > > > > > > > > > > > > > find today to be just as excit= ing a > > > > > > > > > > > > > time as the 90's were. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > James > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, > > > > > > > mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > talking like people at= the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > retirement home gettin= g all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sentimental... ;-) Thi= ngs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will never be the same= . AE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > has arrived at being "= just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another software" that= is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being used by more peo= ple > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with no talent or skil= ls > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than by ones who actua= lly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > intimately know it. It= 's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just the way it is, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sadly... > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > Mylenium > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------= ----- > > > > > > > > www.mylenium.de > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com>= hat > > > > > > > > am 1. Februar 2013 um 06:29 geschrieben: > > > > > > > > > Darn- Totally missed it. > > > > > > > > > I've been thinking about the AE hi= story > > > > > > > > > lately. I was at a pottery > > > > > > > > > workshop, and > > > > > > > > > the teacher kept telling us that i= f > > > > > > > > > anyone asked "how'd you do that!" > > > > > > > > > To say you don't remember. > > > > > > > > > This got me thinking about how in = the > > > > > > > > > beginnings of AE, that anal, > > > > > > > > > secretiveness was the polar opposi= te > > > > > > > > > and you could go online any time > > > > > > > > > day or night, and a Trish Meyer wo= uld > > > > > > > > > always help out. Or a TSassoon, > > > > > > > > > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" = were > > > > > > > > > taboo. And because of that, > > > > > > > > > AE took off, attracted geniuses fr= om > > > > > > > > > all over, and and made history of > > > > > > > > > all of the old guard dinosaurs and > > > > > > > > > their secrets and high-end > > > > > > > > > equipment. > > > > > > > > > That was a dazzling era. > > > > > > > > > Of course, nothing this great last= s. > > > > > > > > > I've been at this long enough to b= e > > > > > > > > > able to tell the ethics of a > > > > > > > > > worker by just looking at his/her > > > > > > > > > profect. One of the last projects = I > > > > > > > > > worked in was unbelievably booby > > > > > > > > > trapped. It was for a fast > > > > > > > > > turnaround network news show, and = the > > > > > > > > > dude did certain things wrong > > > > > > > > > then sneakily made layers invisibl= e. > > > > > > > > > All designed to get the > > > > > > > > > producers on t > > > > > > > > > he phone to get him back. I pointe= d out > > > > > > > > > all of his shenanigans to the > > > > > > > > > creative director. But back to the > > > > > > > > > point. Way back in the early > > > > > > > > > beginnings, what a classy group. > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, Da= vid > > > > > > > > > > Simons < ae@cosa.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > >> In case this event tomorrow has= n't > > > > > > > > > >> been posted on this list yet: > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of > > > > > > > > > >> Adobe After Effects > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at > > > > > > > > > >> 10:00am PST > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >> REGISTER NOW: > > > > > > > > > >> http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wi= lk & > > > > > > > > > >> I will present an interactive > > > > > > > > > >> history of > > > > > > > > > >> AE, including demos of the old > > > > > > > > > >> versions. We welcome questions = from > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > >> audience via the chat pod. > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >> -DaveS > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >>=20 > > > > > > > > > >> +---End of message---+ > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe send any message= to < > > > > > > > > > >> ae-list-off@media-motion.tv > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > +---End of message---+ > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send any message = to < > > > > > > > > > > ae-list-off@media-motion.tv > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > +---End of message---+ > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send any message to= < > > > > > > > > > ae-list-off@media-motion.tv > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > -- > > > > > Animator & Editor > > > > > www.teddygage.com > > > > > Brooklyn > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > >=20 > Cheers, > Chris > Mettle.com > Skype: Mettlecom >=20 >=20 ------=_Part_70704_1865195582.1359752825763 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20 =20
I think when it comes to that, it's more a case of recognizing certa= in talents/ gifts in the first place and fostering and enhancing them by pr= oviding guidance... Anyway, this discussion is getting to esoteric and soon= enough we'll be debating what Neanderthals might have considered "= art"...
=20
 
=20
Mylenium
=20
 
=20
[Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]
-----------------------------------------
www.mylenium.de
=20

Chris Bobotis <chris@mettle.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 19:55 geschrieben:
=20
=20
In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it =CB= =98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, be it = =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the 10,000 hou= r rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words you need to = put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant artists, some with= and some without any formal training. The ones without any formal training= had still put in the time. =20
 
=20
Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach ot= hers just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end result= is what counts, at least to me.=20
 
=20
Cheers,
=20
Chris
=20
mettle.com
=20
=20
On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote:
=20
=20
=20
I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I = just took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of= the defining characteristics of success in this business are awareness and= talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can also ha= ve been come by naturally. =20
 
=20

=20

=20
=20
On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM,=20 mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:
=20
=20
=20
=20
I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both= - either an education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsman= ship/ tricks of the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certai= n manner or an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - = and those should actually never go near a computer or use certain tools. Yo= u're not getting an argument about that one can make up for the other, = but I would still consider a certain level of education important. Even if = you are an artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, i= t helps if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my mean= ing. And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical= process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a well-found= ed knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you wouldn't kno= w how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most beautiful short= s and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as an "artist= "...
=20
 
=20
Mylenium
=20
 
=20 =20

sean cusson < scusson@mac.com> = hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben:
=20
=20
I think trying to define the word "artist" is prett= y useless. In my opinion, if you create something that another person sees = value in then you are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could = anyone possibly try to define the term "artist" or the requirements= necessary to achieve said title? I know tons of people (including mys= elf) who have only gone to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY ca= rved out a decent living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to= pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say y= ou are not an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated= as the first version of AE itself.=20
=20
 
=20

=20
=20
On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:
=20
=20
=20
=20
"When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago&= #34;... 
=20
 
You wouldn't happen to be typing this from = the retirement home computer, would you? 
=20
 
=20
You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather= ...  
=20

Sent from my iPad
=20

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, "   mylenium@mylenium.de" &#= 60;   mylenium@mylenium.de> wr= ote:  
=20
=20
=20
I tend to see it from a different angle, coming fro= m a 3D graphics background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded = in the past. People just take affordable equipment or things like discounte= d education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There w= asn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D ar= tist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could some= how manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have been (no= t talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 bucks Power= Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). An= d instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we have now, they got an updat= e every 2 years and you actually had time to learn them and hone your skill= s and save the money. It works in many ways, if you get my meaning.... And = seeing how many people struggle with even the simplest tutorials, I'm n= ot sure if it's just a "literacy" people can pick up or it prod= uces more talent in any way... To me, it still comes down to this: People, = who can't draw a straight line with a pencil probably shouldn't cal= l themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in other words: I consider= a classical training/ education just as important or even more important t= han just hacking around on the computer or doing odd things with your digit= al camera....
=20
 
=20
Mylenium
=20
 
=20
[Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]  
-----------------------------------------  
www.mylenium.de
=20

James Culbertson <   albion@speakeasy.net> = hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 08:37 geschrieben:
=20
=20
=20
You are describing film/video Production in gener= al. And film/video production is now just another literacy, like writing, t= hat people grow up with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start d= oing it, and we are awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount= of incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for t= alent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the t= rade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's were.
=20
 
=20
James
=20
 
=20
=20
=20
On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM,   mylenium@mylenium.de  wrote:
=20
=20
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You're talking like people at the retireme= nt home getting all sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE ha= s arrived at being "just another software" that is being used by mo= re people with no talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately kno= w it. It's just the way it is, sadly...
=20
 
=20
Mylenium
=20
 
=20
[Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]      
-----------------------------------------      
www.mylenium.de
=20

Jim Lang <   james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 06:29 geschrieben:      
> Darn- Totally missed it.      
> I've been thinking about the AE= history lately. I was at a pottery      
> workshop, and      
> the teacher kept telling us that if= anyone asked "how'd you do that!"      
> To say you don't remember.      
> This got me thinking about how in t= he beginnings of AE, that anal,      
> secretiveness was the polar opposit= e and you could go online any time      
> day or night, and a Trish Meyer wou= ld always help out. Or a TSassoon,      
> or a Brian Maffitt. And "secret= s" were taboo. And because of that,      
> AE took off, attracted geniuses fro= m all over, and and made history of      
> all of the old guard dinosaurs and = their secrets and high-end      
> equipment.      
> That was a dazzling era.      
> Of course, nothing this great lasts= .      
> I've been at this long enough t= o be able to tell the ethics of a      
> worker by just looking at his/her p= rofect. One of the last projects I      
> worked in was unbelievably booby tr= apped. It was for a fast      
> turnaround network news show, and t= he dude did certain things wrong      
> then sneakily made layers invisible= . All designed to get the      
> producers on t      
> he phone to get him back. I pointed= out all of his shenanigans to the      
> creative director. But back to the = point. Way back in the early      
> beginnings, what a classy group.      
>      
> > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM,= David Simons <   ae@cosa.com= > wrote:      
> >      
> >> In case this event tomor= row hasn't been posted on this list yet:      
> >>      
> >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The His= tory of Adobe After Effects      
> >>      
> >> Thursday, January 31st, = 2013 at 10:00am PST      
> >>      
> >> REGISTER NOW:       http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd      
> >>      
> >> About 12 hours from now,= Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history of      
> >> AE, including demos of t= he old versions. We welcome questions from the      
> >> audience via the chat po= d.      
> >>      
> >> -DaveS      
> >>      
> >>      
> >>      
> >> +---End of message---+      
> >> To unsubscribe send any = message to <   ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>      
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--  
Animator & Editor  
www.teddygage.com  
Brooklyn
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Cheers,
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Chris
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Mettle.com
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Skype: Mettlecom
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