Return-Path: Received: from gateway15.websitewelcome.com ([67.18.22.76] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4964584 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:01:53 +0100 Received: by gateway15.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 1DE436606E11A; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 15:07:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from alpina.websitewelcome.com (alpina.websitewelcome.com [74.54.176.2]) by gateway15.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D406606E0CF for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 15:07:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from [199.21.106.72] (port=56418 helo=[192.168.0.25]) by alpina.websitewelcome.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1U1Npd-0000uL-KK for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:07:33 -0600 From: Chris Meyer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AC34C846-3D2A-4A2B-B735-9BD5AF35E8E4" Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 14:07:32 -0700 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: <2525C1C8-4E26-47AE-9380-EBC013FB1F0B@crishdesign.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - alpina.websitewelcome.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - media-motion.tv X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - crishdesign.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([192.168.0.25]) [199.21.106.72]:56418 X-Source-Auth: chris@crishdesign.com X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: Y3Jpc2h3ZWI7Y3Jpc2h3ZWI7YWxwaW5hLndlYnNpdGV3ZWxjb21lLmNvbQ== --Apple-Mail=_AC34C846-3D2A-4A2B-B735-9BD5AF35E8E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think there are artists that have more of a knack (or "natural = talent") than others - but I've also both learned and observed that even = if you have that natural talent, it can be improved through study and = practice. And meanwhile, those with the natural benefits can still learn = most or all of what's needed. - Chris On Feb 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Chris Bobotis wrote: > In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it = =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, = be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the = 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words = you need to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant = artists, some with and some without any formal training. The ones = without any formal training had still put in the time.=20 >=20 > Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach = others just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end = result is what counts, at least to me. >=20 > Cheers, > Chris > mettle.com > On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: >=20 >> I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I = just took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 = of the defining characteristics of success in this business are = awareness and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education = but can also have been come by naturally.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>=20 >>> I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - = either an education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ = tricks of the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain = manner or an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those = should actually never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're = not getting an argument about that one can make up for the other, but I = would still consider a certain level of education important. Even if you = are an artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it = helps if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my = meaning. And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a = technical process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least = a well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an "artist"... >>> =20 >>> Mylenium >>> =20 >>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 >>> -----------------------------------------=20 >>> www.mylenium.de >>>=20 >>> sean cusson hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 = geschrieben: >>>> I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In my = opinion, if you create something that another person sees value in then = you are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone = possibly try to define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary = to achieve said title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have = only gone to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a = decent living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to = pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say = you are not an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated = as the first version of AE itself. >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> "When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago"...=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the retirement home = computer, would you?=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather...=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < = mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote:=20 >>>>>> I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D = graphics background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the = past. People just take affordable equipment or things like discounted = education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There = wasn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D = artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could = somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have = been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 = bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks = Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we = have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time to = learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many = ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with = even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" = people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it = still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight line with a = pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in = other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as = important or even more important than just hacking around on the = computer or doing odd things with your digital camera.... >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> Mylenium >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 >>>>>> -----------------------------------------=20 >>>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 = um 08:37 geschrieben: >>>>>>> You are describing film/video Production in general. And = film/video production is now just another literacy, like writing, that = people grow up with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start = doing it, and we are awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount = of incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's were. >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> James >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all = sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at = being "just another software" that is being used by more people with no = talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just = the way it is, sadly... >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> Mylenium >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 >>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------- =20 >>>>>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 06:29 geschrieben: =20 >>>>>>>> > Darn- Totally missed it. =20 >>>>>>>> > I've been thinking about the AE history lately. I was at a = pottery =20 >>>>>>>> > workshop, and =20 >>>>>>>> > the teacher kept telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you = do that!" =20 >>>>>>>> > To say you don't remember. =20 >>>>>>>> > This got me thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that = anal, =20 >>>>>>>> > secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online = any time =20 >>>>>>>> > day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a = TSassoon, =20 >>>>>>>> > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of = that, =20 >>>>>>>> > AE took off, attracted geniuses from all over, and and made = history of =20 >>>>>>>> > all of the old guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end = =20 >>>>>>>> > equipment. =20 >>>>>>>> > That was a dazzling era. =20 >>>>>>>> > Of course, nothing this great lasts. =20 >>>>>>>> > I've been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics = of a =20 >>>>>>>> > worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last = projects I =20 >>>>>>>> > worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast =20= >>>>>>>> > turnaround network news show, and the dude did certain things = wrong =20 >>>>>>>> > then sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get the = =20 >>>>>>>> > producers on t =20 >>>>>>>> > he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his = shenanigans to the =20 >>>>>>>> > creative director. But back to the point. Way back in the = early =20 >>>>>>>> > beginnings, what a classy group. =20 >>>>>>>> > =20 >>>>>>>> > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> = wrote: =20 >>>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>>> > >> In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this = list yet: =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> REGISTER NOW: http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an = interactive history of =20 >>>>>>>> > >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We welcome = questions from the =20 >>>>>>>> > >> audience via the chat pod. =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> -DaveS =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>> > >> +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>>> > >> To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>>> > > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>>> > > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>>>>> > =20 >>>>>>>> > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Animator & Editor=20 >>>>> www.teddygage.com=20 >>>>> Brooklyn >>> =20 >>=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Chris > Mettle.com > Skype: Mettlecom >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_AC34C846-3D2A-4A2B-B735-9BD5AF35E8E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = think there are artists that have more of a knack (or "natural talent") = than others - but I've also both learned and observed that even if you = have that natural talent, it can be improved through study and practice. = And meanwhile, those with the natural benefits can still learn most or = all of what's needed.

 - = Chris



On Feb 1, = 2013, at 11:55 AM, Chris Bobotis wrote:

In my experience, I have yet to = meet an artist that has come by it =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or = another you need to put in the time, be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or = =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the 10,000 hour rule applies to = art as much as anything else. In other words you need to put in the time = and effort. I have worked with brilliant artists, some with and some = without any formal training. The ones without any formal training had = still put in the time. 

Some take to = conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach others just do = not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end result is what = counts, at least to = me.

Cheers,
Chris
mettle.com
On 2013-02-01, = at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote:

I get it and agree with you = that education is always important. I just took issue with anyone = actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of the defining = characteristics of success in this business are awareness and talent. = Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can also have = been come by = naturally. 



On = 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de = wrote:

I = think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - either an = education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of = the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain manner or = an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually = never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an = argument about that one can make up for the other, but I would still = consider a certain level of education important. Even if you are an = artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps = if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. = And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical = process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a = well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an = "artist"...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 
www.mylenium.de

sean = cusson <scusson@mac.com> = hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben:
I think trying to define the word "artist" is = pretty useless. In my opinion, if you create something that another = person sees value in then you are an artist. Art is completely = subjective so how could anyone possibly try to define the term "artist" = or the requirements necessary to achieve said title? I know tons of = people (including myself) who have only gone to high school and yet have = somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent living for themselves. There = are definitely advantages to pursuing an art education (in whatever = discipline you choose) but to say you are not an artist if you don't = have formal training is as antiquated as the first version of AE = itself.
 

On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 = AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

"When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years = ago"... 
 
You wouldn't happen to be typing = this from the retirement home computer, would you? 
 
You're certainly grumpy = enough to be a grandfather... 

Sen= t from my iPad

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: 
I tend to see it from a different angle, coming = from a 3D graphics background. I don't think anyone was actually = excluded in the past. People just take affordable equipment or things = like discounted education versions for granted these days, luxuries we = never had. There wasn't even something like Blender around when I = started out as an 3D artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted = hard enough you could somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how = expensive they may have been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI = workstation and another 70000 bucks Power Animator license, obviously; = more like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). And instead of the annual = upgrade death spiral we have now, they got an update every 2 years and = you actually had time to learn them and hone your skills and save the = money. It works in many ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how = many people struggle with even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if = it's just a "literacy" people can pick up or it produces more talent in = any way... To me, it still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a = straight line with a pencil probably shouldn't call themselves = "motiongraphics artist". Or in other words: I consider a classical = training/ education just as important or even more important than just = hacking around on the computer or doing odd things with your digital = camera....
 
Mylenium
 
= [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 
www.mylenium.de

James = Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 08:37 geschrieben:
You are = describing film/video Production in general. And film/video production = is now just another literacy, like writing, that people grow up with. = So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start doing it, and we are = awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount of = incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's = were.
 
James
 

On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:

You're talking like people at the retirement = home getting all sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE = has arrived at being "just another software" that is being used by more = people with no talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately = know it. It's just the way it is, = sadly...
 
Mylenium
 
[P= our Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]   
-------------------------= ----------------   
www.mylenium.de

Jim = Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 = um 06:29 geschrieben:   
> Darn- Totally = missed it.   
> I've been thinking = about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery   
> workshop, and   
> the teacher kept = telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do that!"   
> To say you don't = remember.   
> This got me = thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that anal,   
> secretiveness was = the polar opposite and you could go online any time   
> day or night, and = a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a TSassoon,   
> or a Brian = Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of that,   
> AE took off, = attracted geniuses from all over, and and made history of   
> all of the old = guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end   
> equipment.   
> That was a = dazzling era.   
> Of course, nothing = this great lasts.   
> I've been at this = long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a   
> worker by just = looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects I   
> worked in was = unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast   
> turnaround network = news show, and the dude did certain things wrong   
> then sneakily made = layers invisible. All designed to get the   
> producers on = t   
> he phone to get = him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to the   
> creative director. = But back to the point. Way back in the early   
> beginnings, what a = classy group.   
>   
> > On Jan 30, = 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> wrote:   
> >   
> >> In case = this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list yet:   
> >>   
> >> ASK A = VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects   
> >>   
> >> Thursday, = January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST   
> >>   
> >> REGISTER = NOW:   http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd   
> >>   
> >> About 12 = hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history = of   
> >> AE, = including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions from the   
> >> audience = via the chat pod.   
> >>   
> >> = -DaveS   
> >>   
> >>   
> >>   
> >> +---End = of message---+   
> >> To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
> >   
> >   
> > +---End of = message---+   
> > To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
>   
> +---End of = message---+   
> To unsubscribe = send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>

 


-- 
Animator & Editor 
www.teddygage.com 
Mettle.com
Skype: = Mettlecom




= --Apple-Mail=_AC34C846-3D2A-4A2B-B735-9BD5AF35E8E4--