Return-Path: Received: from clustermx1.nwk01.hosting.com ([204.12.102.36] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4964592 for ae-list@media-motion.tv; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:07:07 +0100 X-HDC-Scanned: Yes Received: from mail70.safesecureweb.com (mail70.safesecureweb.com [76.12.11.4]) by clustermx1.nwk01.hosting.com (HDCMail-outmx) with ESMTP id F2E43900BF for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 16:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pool-173-49-171-115.phlapa.fios.verizon.net [173.49.171.115] by mail70.safesecureweb.com with SMTP; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 16:12:31 -0500 From: email blanca Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--806138136 Subject: Re: spL: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 16:12:31 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) --Apple-Mail-1--806138136 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My... Now that you mention neanderthal art appreciation... I'd just say to = anyone who has a great client(s), thank them for their business, they = seem fewer and farther between. :) RJ .... PS I love reading this list. :) On Feb 1, 2013, at 4:07 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: > I think when it comes to that, it's more a case of recognizing certain = talents/ gifts in the first place and fostering and enhancing them by = providing guidance... Anyway, this discussion is getting to esoteric and = soon enough we'll be debating what Neanderthals might have considered = "art"... > =20 > Mylenium > =20 > [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 > -----------------------------------------=20 > www.mylenium.de >=20 > Chris Bobotis hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 19:55 = geschrieben: >> In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it = =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, = be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the = 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words = you need to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant = artists, some with and some without any formal training. The ones = without any formal training had still put in the time.=20 >> =20 >> Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach = others just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end = result is what counts, at least to me. >> =20 >> Cheers, >> Chris >> mettle.com=20 >> On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: >>=20 >>> I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I = just took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 = of the defining characteristics of success in this business are = awareness and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education = but can also have been come by naturally.=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - = either an education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ = tricks of the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain = manner or an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those = should actually never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're = not getting an argument about that one can make up for the other, but I = would still consider a certain level of education important. Even if you = are an artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it = helps if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my = meaning. And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a = technical process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least = a well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an "artist"... >>>> =20 >>>> Mylenium >>>> =20 >>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 >>>> ----------------------------------------- =20 >>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>=20 >>>> sean cusson < scusson@mac.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 = geschrieben: >>>>> I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In = my opinion, if you create something that another person sees value in = then you are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone = possibly try to define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary = to achieve said title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have = only gone to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a = decent living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to = pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say = you are not an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated = as the first version of AE itself. >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> "When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago"...=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the retirement home = computer, would you?=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather... =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < = mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: =20 >>>>>>> I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D = graphics background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the = past. People just take affordable equipment or things like discounted = education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There = wasn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D = artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could = somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have = been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 = bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks = Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we = have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time to = learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many = ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with = even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" = people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it = still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight line with a = pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in = other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as = important or even more important than just hacking around on the = computer or doing odd things with your digital camera.... >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> Mylenium >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------- =20 >>>>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar = 2013 um 08:37 geschrieben: >>>>>>>> You are describing film/video Production in general. And = film/video production is now just another literacy, like writing, that = people grow up with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start = doing it, and we are awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount = of incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's were. >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all = sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at = being "just another software" that is being used by more people with no = talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just = the way it is, sadly... >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> Mylenium >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 >>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------- =20 >>>>>>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 06:29 geschrieben: =20 >>>>>>>>> > Darn- Totally missed it. =20 >>>>>>>>> > I've been thinking about the AE history lately. I was at a = pottery =20 >>>>>>>>> > workshop, and =20 >>>>>>>>> > the teacher kept telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you = do that!" =20 >>>>>>>>> > To say you don't remember. =20 >>>>>>>>> > This got me thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that = anal, =20 >>>>>>>>> > secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online = any time =20 >>>>>>>>> > day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a = TSassoon, =20 >>>>>>>>> > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of = that, =20 >>>>>>>>> > AE took off, attracted geniuses from all over, and and made = history of =20 >>>>>>>>> > all of the old guard dinosaurs and their secrets and = high-end =20 >>>>>>>>> > equipment. =20 >>>>>>>>> > That was a dazzling era. =20 >>>>>>>>> > Of course, nothing this great lasts. =20 >>>>>>>>> > I've been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics = of a =20 >>>>>>>>> > worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last = projects I =20 >>>>>>>>> > worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast = =20 >>>>>>>>> > turnaround network news show, and the dude did certain = things wrong =20 >>>>>>>>> > then sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get the = =20 >>>>>>>>> > producers on t =20 >>>>>>>>> > he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his = shenanigans to the =20 >>>>>>>>> > creative director. But back to the point. Way back in the = early =20 >>>>>>>>> > beginnings, what a classy group. =20 >>>>>>>>> > =20 >>>>>>>>> > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < = ae@cosa.com> wrote: =20 >>>>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this = list yet: =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects =20= >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> REGISTER NOW: http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an = interactive history of =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We welcome = questions from the =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> audience via the chat pod. =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> -DaveS =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>>>> > >> To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>>>> > > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>>>> > > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>>>>>> > =20 >>>>>>>>> > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- =20 >>>>>> Animator & Editor =20 >>>>>> www.teddygage.com =20 >>>>>> Brooklyn >>>> =20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Chris >> Mettle.com >> Skype: Mettlecom >>=20 >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-1--806138136 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 My...

Now that you mention = neanderthal art appreciation...  I'd just say to anyone who has a = great client(s), thank them for their business, they seem fewer and = farther = between.

:)

RJ
....

PS  I love reading this list. = :)


On Feb 1, 2013, at 4:07 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de = wrote:

I = think when it comes to that, it's more a case of recognizing certain = talents/ gifts in the first place and fostering and enhancing them by = providing guidance... Anyway, this discussion is getting to esoteric and = soon enough we'll be debating what Neanderthals might have considered = "art"...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] 
-------------------------= ---------------- 
www.mylenium.de

Chris = Bobotis <chris@mettle.com> = hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 19:55 geschrieben:
In my experience, I have yet to meet an = artist that has come by it =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you = need to put in the time, be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 = training. I think the 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as = anything else. In other words you need to put in the time and effort. I = have worked with brilliant artists, some with and some without any = formal training. The ones without any formal training had still put in = the time. 
 
Some take to conventional teaching = methods and a cartesian approach others just do not. I cannot say one is = better than the other. The end result is what counts, at least to = me.
 
Cheers,
Chris
mettle.com 
On = 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote:

I get it and agree with you that = education is always important. I just took issue with anyone actually = defining the term artist. I think 2 of the defining characteristics of = success in this business are awareness and talent. Both of which can be = greatly enhanced by education but can also have been come by = naturally. 
 


On = 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:

I = think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - either an = education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of = the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain manner or = an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually = never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an = argument about that one can make up for the other, but I would still = consider a certain level of education important. Even if you are an = artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps = if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. = And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical = process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a = well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an = "artist"...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]   
-------------------------= ----------------   
www.mylenium.de

sean = cusson < scusson@mac.com> hat am 1. = Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben:
I think trying to define the word "artist" is = pretty useless. In my opinion, if you create something that another = person sees value in then you are an artist. Art is completely = subjective so how could anyone possibly try to define the term "artist" = or the requirements necessary to achieve said title? I know tons of = people (including myself) who have only gone to high school and yet have = somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent living for themselves. There = are definitely advantages to pursuing an art education (in whatever = discipline you choose) but to say you are not an artist if you don't = have formal training is as antiquated as the first version of AE = itself.
 

On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 = AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

"When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years = ago"... 
 
You wouldn't happen to be typing = this from the retirement home computer, would you? 
 
You're certainly grumpy = enough to be a grandfather...   

Sen= t from my iPad

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, "   mylenium@mylenium.de" <   mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote:  
I tend to see it from a different angle, coming = from a 3D graphics background. I don't think anyone was actually = excluded in the past. People just take affordable equipment or things = like discounted education versions for granted these days, luxuries we = never had. There wasn't even something like Blender around when I = started out as an 3D artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted = hard enough you could somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how = expensive they may have been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI = workstation and another 70000 bucks Power Animator license, obviously; = more like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). And instead of the annual = upgrade death spiral we have now, they got an update every 2 years and = you actually had time to learn them and hone your skills and save the = money. It works in many ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how = many people struggle with even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if = it's just a "literacy" people can pick up or it produces more talent in = any way... To me, it still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a = straight line with a pencil probably shouldn't call themselves = "motiongraphics artist". Or in other words: I consider a classical = training/ education just as important or even more important than just = hacking around on the computer or doing odd things with your digital = camera....
 
Mylenium
 
= [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]   
-------------------------= ----------------   
www.mylenium.de

James = Culbertson <   albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 08:37 geschrieben:
You are = describing film/video Production in general. And film/video production = is now just another literacy, like writing, that people grow up with. = So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start doing it, and we are = awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount of = incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's = were.
 
James
 

On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM,   mylenium@mylenium.de  wrote:

You're talking like people at the retirement = home getting all sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE = has arrived at being "just another software" that is being used by more = people with no talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately = know it. It's just the way it is, = sadly...
 
Mylenium
 
[P= our Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]       
-------------------------= ----------------       
www.mylenium.de

Jim = Lang <   james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 = um 06:29 geschrieben:       
> Darn- Totally = missed it.       
> I've been thinking = about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery       
> workshop, and       
> the teacher kept = telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do that!"       
> To say you don't = remember.       
> This got me = thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that anal,       
> secretiveness was = the polar opposite and you could go online any time       
> day or night, and = a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a TSassoon,       
> or a Brian = Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of that,       
> AE took off, = attracted geniuses from all over, and and made history of       
> all of the old = guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end       
> equipment.       
> That was a = dazzling era.       
> Of course, nothing = this great lasts.       
> I've been at this = long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a       
> worker by just = looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects I       
> worked in was = unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast       
> turnaround network = news show, and the dude did certain things wrong       
> then sneakily made = layers invisible. All designed to get the       
> producers on = t       
> he phone to get = him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to the       
> creative director. = But back to the point. Way back in the early       
> beginnings, what a = classy group.       
>       
> > On Jan 30, = 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons <   ae@cosa.com> wrote:       
> >       
> >> In case = this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list yet:       
> >>       
> >> ASK A = VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects       
> >>       
> >> Thursday, = January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST       
> >>       
> >> REGISTER = NOW:       http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd       
> >>       
> >> About 12 = hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history = of       
> >> AE, = including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions from the       
> >> audience = via the chat pod.       
> >>       
> >> = -DaveS       
> >>       
> >>       
> >>       
> >> +---End = of message---+       
> >> To = unsubscribe send any message to <   ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>       
> >       
> >       
> > +---End of = message---+       
> > To = unsubscribe send any message to <   ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>       
>       
> +---End of = message---+       
> To unsubscribe = send any message to <   ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>

 


--   
Animator & Editor   
www.teddygage.com   
Mettle.com
Skype: = Mettlecom

=
 

= --Apple-Mail-1--806138136--