Return-Path: Received: from toroondcbmts07-srv.bellnexxia.net ([207.236.237.41] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 4964698 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sat, 02 Feb 2013 00:14:47 +0100 Received: from toip57-bus.srvr.bell.ca ([67.69.240.184]) by toroondcbmts07-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20130201232033.JGBS10584.toroondcbmts07-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip57-bus.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:20:33 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: As4BAGhGDFGuXauV/2dsb2JhbAANOIN3glGvRwGJNIEsAYFkAQEBAwEjJgUwCwsHESAKAgIhEBUDDgYICxYEAgEEh14DCQ2vKnGIdw0HiU+MGXwSgxQyYQOIZotagVeBHYohAgGIKQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,579,1355115600"; d="scan'208,217";a="303388015" Received: from bas3-montreal50-2925374357.dsl.bell.ca (HELO [192.168.2.11]) ([174.93.171.149]) by toip57-bus.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2013 18:20:32 -0500 From: Chris Bobotis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-80--798457153 Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:20:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: <06134DB4-E2E9-4744-9681-2E0FBBC58D6F@mettle.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) --Apple-Mail-80--798457153 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Carey!. I am intrigued... ordered my copy. Cheers, Chris mettle.xom On 2013-02-01, at 6:05 PM, Carey Dissmore wrote: > You guys should really read this book. It is absolutely brilliant and = I just can't recommend it enough.=20 > http://amzn.to/VBP7lx >=20 > Carey >=20 > On Feb 1, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Chris Meyer wrote: >=20 >> I think there are artists that have more of a knack (or "natural = talent") than others - but I've also both learned and observed that even = if you have that natural talent, it can be improved through study and = practice. And meanwhile, those with the natural benefits can still learn = most or all of what's needed. >>=20 >> - Chris >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Chris Bobotis wrote: >>=20 >>> In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it = =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, = be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the = 10,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words = you need to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant = artists, some with and some without any formal training. The ones = without any formal training had still put in the time.=20 >>>=20 >>> Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach = others just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end = result is what counts, at least to me. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Chris >>> mettle.com >>> On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I = just took issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 = of the defining characteristics of success in this business are = awareness and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education = but can also have been come by naturally.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - = either an education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ = tricks of the trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain = manner or an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those = should actually never go near a computer or use certain tools. You're = not getting an argument about that one can make up for the other, but I = would still consider a certain level of education important. Even if you = are an artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it = helps if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my = meaning. And let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a = technical process no matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least = a well-founded knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you = wouldn't know how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most = beautiful shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as = an "artist"... >>>>> =20 >>>>> Mylenium >>>>> =20 >>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 >>>>> -----------------------------------------=20 >>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>>=20 >>>>> sean cusson hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 = geschrieben: >>>>> I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In = my opinion, if you create something that another person sees value in = then you are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone = possibly try to define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary = to achieve said title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have = only gone to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a = decent living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to = pursuing an art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say = you are not an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated = as the first version of AE itself. >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> "When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago"...=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the retirement home = computer, would you?=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather...=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < = mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote:=20 >>>>> I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D graphics = background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the past. = People just take affordable equipment or things like discounted = education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There = wasn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D = artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could = somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have = been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 = bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks = Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we = have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time to = learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many = ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with = even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" = people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it = still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight line with a = pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in = other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as = important or even more important than just hacking around on the = computer or doing odd things with your digital camera.... >>>>> =20 >>>>> Mylenium >>>>> =20 >>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre]=20 >>>>> -----------------------------------------=20 >>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>> James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um = 08:37 geschrieben: >>>>> You are describing film/video Production in general. And = film/video production is now just another literacy, like writing, that = people grow up with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start = doing it, and we are awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount = of incompetence. But at the same time if you have the potential for = talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the = trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's were. >>>>> =20 >>>>> James >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>>> You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all = sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at = being "just another software" that is being used by more people with no = talent or skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just = the way it is, sadly... >>>>> =20 >>>>> Mylenium >>>>> =20 >>>>> [Pour Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur terre] =20 >>>>> ----------------------------------------- =20 >>>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>> Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 06:29 = geschrieben: =20 >>>>> > Darn- Totally missed it. =20 >>>>> > I've been thinking about the AE history lately. I was at a = pottery =20 >>>>> > workshop, and =20 >>>>> > the teacher kept telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do = that!" =20 >>>>> > To say you don't remember. =20 >>>>> > This got me thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that = anal, =20 >>>>> > secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online any = time =20 >>>>> > day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a = TSassoon, =20 >>>>> > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of = that, =20 >>>>> > AE took off, attracted geniuses from all over, and and made = history of =20 >>>>> > all of the old guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end =20= >>>>> > equipment. =20 >>>>> > That was a dazzling era. =20 >>>>> > Of course, nothing this great lasts. =20 >>>>> > I've been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a = =20 >>>>> > worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last = projects I =20 >>>>> > worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast =20 >>>>> > turnaround network news show, and the dude did certain things = wrong =20 >>>>> > then sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get the =20= >>>>> > producers on t =20 >>>>> > he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans = to the =20 >>>>> > creative director. But back to the point. Way back in the early = =20 >>>>> > beginnings, what a classy group. =20 >>>>> > =20 >>>>> > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> = wrote: =20 >>>>> > > =20 >>>>> > >> In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list = yet: =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> REGISTER NOW: http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an = interactive history of =20 >>>>> > >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions = from the =20 >>>>> > >> audience via the chat pod. =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> -DaveS =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> =20 >>>>> > >> +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>> > >> To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>> > > =20 >>>>> > > =20 >>>>> > > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>> > > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> =20 >>>>> > =20 >>>>> > +---End of message---+ =20 >>>>> > To unsubscribe send any message to < = ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Animator & Editor=20 >>>>> www.teddygage.com=20 >>>>> Brooklyn=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Chris >>> Mettle.com >>> Skype: Mettlecom >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 Cheers, Chris Mettle.com Skype: Mettlecom --Apple-Mail-80--798457153 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
You guys should really read = this book. It is absolutely brilliant and I just can't recommend it = enough. 

Carey

On Feb 1, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Chris = Meyer <chris@crishdesign.com> = wrote:

I think there are = artists that have more of a knack (or "natural talent") than others - = but I've also both learned and observed that even if you have that = natural talent, it can be improved through study and practice. And = meanwhile, those with the natural benefits can still learn most or all = of what's needed.

 - = Chris



On Feb 1, = 2013, at 11:55 AM, Chris Bobotis wrote:

In my experience, I have yet to = meet an artist that has come by it =CB=98naturally=CB=98. One way or = another you need to put in the time, be it =CB=98formal=CB=98 or = =CB=98informal=CB=98 training. I think the 10,000 hour rule applies to = art as much as anything else. In other words you need to put in the time = and effort. I have worked with brilliant artists, some with and some = without any formal training. The ones without any formal training had = still put in the time. 

Some take to = conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach others just do = not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end result is what = counts, at least to = me.

Cheers,
Chris
mettle.com
On 2013-02-01, = at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote:

I get it and agree with you = that education is always important. I just took issue with anyone = actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of the defining = characteristics of success in this business are awareness and talent. = Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can also have = been come by = naturally. 



On = 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de = wrote:

I think my point is more that some = people are devoid of both - either an education that allows them to = provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of the trade/ services whatever you = wanna call it) in a certain manner or an "intuitive", inate = understanding of "art" - and those should actually never go near a = computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an argument about that = one can make up for the other, but I would still consider a certain = level of education important. Even if you are an artist who does = wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps if you can = rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. And let's = not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical process no = matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a well-founded = knowledge helps to let people see your creation. If you wouldn't know = how to get it on YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most beautiful = shorts and the world still wouldn't take any notice of you as an = "artist"...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pou= r Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur = terre] 
----------------------------------------- 
www.mylenium.de

sean cusson = <scusson@mac.com> hat am 1. = Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben:
I think trying to define the = word "artist" is pretty useless. In my opinion, if you create something = that another person sees value in then you are an artist. Art is = completely subjective so how could anyone possibly try to define the = term "artist" or the requirements necessary to achieve said = title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have only gone = to high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent = living for themselves. There are definitely advantages to pursuing an = art education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say you are not = an artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated as the = first version of AE itself.
 

On 2013-02-01, at = 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

"When I = started out as an 3d artist 19 years = ago"... 
 
You wouldn't happen to be typing = this from the retirement home computer, would you? 
 
You're certainly grumpy enough to be a = grandfather... 

Sent from my = iPad

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: 
I = tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D graphics = background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the past. = People just take affordable equipment or things like discounted = education versions for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There = wasn't even something like Blender around when I started out as an 3D = artist 19 years ago. And still, if you only wanted hard enough you could = somehow manage to buy your tools no matter how expensive they may have = been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 = bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like a 3000 bucks = Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spiral we = have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time to = learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many = ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with = even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" = people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it = still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight line with a = pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in = other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as = important or even more important than just hacking around on the = computer or doing odd things with your digital = camera....
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour= Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur = terre] 
----------------------------------------- 
www.mylenium.de
James Culbertson = < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. = Februar 2013 um 08:37 geschrieben:
You are describing film/video = Production in general. And film/video production is now just another = literacy, like writing, that people grow up with. So, yes, there are a = lot of folks who just start doing it, and we are awash in = competition. There is a tremendous amount of incompetence. But = at the same time if you have the potential for talent you are not = excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the trade off. I find = today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's = were.
 
James
 

On Jan = 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:
You're = talking like people at the retirement home getting all sentimental... = ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at being "just another = software" that is being used by more people with no talent or skills = than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just the way it is, = sadly...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour = Myl=C3=A8ne, ange sur = terre]   
----------------------------------------- = ;  
www.mylenium.de
Jim Lang = < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. = Februar 2013 um 06:29 geschrieben:   
> Darn- = Totally missed it.   
> I've been thinking about = the AE history lately. I was at a pottery   
> = workshop, and   
> the teacher kept telling us that = if anyone asked "how'd you do that!"   
> To say = you don't remember.   
> This got me thinking about = how in the beginnings of AE, that anal,   
> = secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online any = time   
> day or night, and a Trish Meyer would = always help out. Or a TSassoon,   
> or a Brian = Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of = that,   
> AE took off, attracted geniuses from all = over, and and made history of   
> all of the old = guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end   
> = equipment.   
> That was a dazzling = era.   
> Of course, nothing this great = lasts.   
> I've been at this long enough to be = able to tell the ethics of a   
> worker by just = looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects = I   
> worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It = was for a fast   
> turnaround network news show, = and the dude did certain things wrong   
> then = sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get = the   
> producers on t   
> = he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to = the   
> creative director. But back to the point. = Way back in the early   
> beginnings, what a = classy group.   
>   
> > = On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> = wrote:   
> >   
> >> = In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list = yet:   
> >>   
> = >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After = Effects   
> >>   
> = >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am = PST   
> >>   
> = >> REGISTER NOW:   http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd  &nbs= p;
> >>   
> >> About 12 hours = from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history = of   
> >> AE, including demos of the old = versions. We welcome questions from the   
> = >> audience via the chat pod.   
> = >>   
> >> = -DaveS   
> >>   
> = >>   
> >>   
> = >> +---End of message---+   
> >> To = unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
> >   
> = >   
> > +---End of = message---+   
> > To unsubscribe send any = message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
>   
> +---End of = message---+   
> To unsubscribe send any message to = < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>
 

-- 
Animator & Editor 
www.teddygage.com 
Brooklyn 

<= /blockquote>

Mettle.com
Skype: = Mettlecom


=



Mettle.com
Skype: = Mettlecom



= --Apple-Mail-80--798457153--