Return-Path: Received: from nm14.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.215] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 4964788 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sat, 02 Feb 2013 04:31:57 +0100 Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm14.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2013 03:37:42 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.206] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2013 03:37:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp110.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2013 03:37:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sbcglobal.net; s=s1024; t=1359776262; bh=vJaRPdh/maX1sClprWMe7UrS1ZdAIMdKBPOVro8wC90=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; b=iAjugLp1ERQJ0pETjY3grsVT0U5CiAiVpaBdtAbwqSXfYoH2g6kg/mFWpnDU188+WyxXFIQy+yezgxjSqwWvxEPHrZ2mYXPNVEsqljUVmpokkmywJOBDA5ISxsQ0yNsg8eylYIHxdqUXSzB54ImWtHYYIpQ905doBaYrqR/VahA= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 109065.43673.bm@smtp110.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: sH_gcNUVM1nm3MDmYbOMzNsEml2aZAcO84POdHdQEW3lrnn Jaa.3QZ42zQN2UDymITWk6yRlkIZL41GsnRwC5fe7KY3vRVrbmImo4atPfan tjstvLX3lLnhfpgiIuieuavADalclsECDCTCVwKtO8L7251fwjIJHfzuWyUE bjE6wwnNdE6QsaWTm3TttOxnzyhHtj8AH6tfnP1s5MQo2UA5_0ohcetlivQo OfAXN_imUR9uou5VpmjmXgBNISBXPdIKE15afvSUeEnOrLd4ecYWn9od2T8u yyl6YYHP67OpKVf3hOqx_2.37HT44R725AZZs7PEOEy6GNiU7S_QocrdQXjJ 7MThLxJczwWS4J_IxDQBsmSWZpZwKviGNgdvuCcKvFvTNPV4wKT_EdFeRGGT 6MYbdRaWSmH76lkBb.CP6TpzAkKYV.1nStytcgCugKkD0fpbo4O7cjuqtIad ADO.H7h5zlIxKGlpBUTxBqrX7SeSXyTftf_GyMh8uAc1Rfy4fyhgTM90yYkH vTkyOEkctGI4v4lAfWnD4p8UBTVCtkzF5sJDjTVQpS1gkEOdT7gUWOoG4iVA DNcXgTH8GwB.Q8Xh8dWscFqPOCBNm4Vy4xtYHFkuNjcurHWy829lMLn3XXPJ CdRoz5DMIklCzoEUZR7aQitR.l_XCTtLSaXFBIF0tDKZEFbH5re2cjw6Xq4k S3SrGEMZDjM3Unp3fKV1T_83dxfZIzrT7FmvbN71AcTc- X-Yahoo-SMTP: oDRl5YCswBBBAF2CmVHEIgXNa1rzfIV.sTBdVEGK6LOFehL6Acs- Received: from [192.168.1.70] (enrique0210@99.38.133.8 with login) by smtp110.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 01 Feb 2013 19:37:41 -0800 PST User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:37:38 -0800 Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects From: Enrique Gamez To: After Effects Mail List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3442592261_7870847" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3442592261_7870847 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I wonder if a book on mediocrity would sell? Working title: "Ordinary People". -enrique From: Carey Dissmore Reply-To: After Effects Mail List Date: Friday, February 1, 2013 3:05 PM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects You guys should really read this book. It is absolutely brilliant and I jus= t can't recommend it enough. http://amzn.to/VBP7lx Carey On Feb 1, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Chris Meyer wrote: > I think there are artists that have more of a knack (or "natural talent")= than > others - but I've also both learned and observed that even if you have th= at > natural talent, it can be improved through study and practice. And meanwh= ile, > those with the natural benefits can still learn most or all of what's nee= ded. >=20 > - Chris >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Feb 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Chris Bobotis wrote: >=20 >> In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has come by it >> =98naturally=98. One way or another you need to put in the time, be it =98form= al=98 >> or =98informal=98 training. I think the 10,000 hour rule applies to art as m= uch >> as anything else. In other words you need to put in the time and effort.= I >> have worked with brilliant artists, some with and some without any forma= l >> training. The ones without any formal training had still put in the time= . >>=20 >> Some take to conventional teaching methods and a cartesian approach othe= rs >> just do not. I cannot say one is better than the other. The end result i= s >> what counts, at least to me. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Chris >> mettle.com >> On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cusson wrote: >>=20 >>> I get it and agree with you that education is always important. I just = took >>> issue with anyone actually defining the term artist. I think 2 of the >>> defining characteristics of success in this business are awareness and >>> talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education but can also= have >>> been come by naturally. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I think my point is more that some people are devoid of both - either = an >>>> education that allows them to provide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of = the >>>> trade/ services whatever you wanna call it) in a certain manner or an >>>> "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" - and those should actually = never >>>> go near a computer or use certain tools. You're not getting an argumen= t >>>> about that one can make up for the other, but I would still consider a >>>> certain level of education important. Even if you are an artist who do= es >>>> wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it helps if you can >>>> rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. And let's= not >>>> lose sight that everything we do is also a technical process no matter >>>> what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a well-founded knowledge h= elps >>>> to let people see your creation. If you wouldn't know how to get it on >>>> YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most beautiful shorts and the worl= d >>>> still wouldn't take any notice of you as an "artist"... >>>> =20 >>>> Mylenium >>>> =20 >>>> [Pour Myl=E8ne, ange sur terre] >>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>> www.mylenium.de >>>>=20 >>>> sean cusson hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrie= ben: >>>> I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In my >>>> opinion, if you create something that another person sees value in the= n you >>>> are an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone possib= ly >>>> try to define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary to achie= ve >>>> said title? I know tons of people (including myself) who have only gon= e to >>>> high school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent livi= ng >>>> for themselves. There are definitely advantages to pursuing an art >>>> education (in whatever discipline you choose) but to say you are not a= n >>>> artist if you don't have formal training is as antiquated as the first >>>> version of AE itself. >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> "When I started out as an 3d artist 19 years ago"... >>>> =20 >>>> You wouldn't happen to be typing this from the retirement home compute= r, >>>> would you?=20 >>>> =20 >>>> You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grandfather... >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" < >>>> mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: >>>> I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D graphics >>>> background. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the past. Pe= ople >>>> just take affordable equipment or things like discounted education ver= sions >>>> for granted these days, luxuries we never had. There wasn't even somet= hing >>>> like Blender around when I started out as an 3D artist 19 years ago. A= nd >>>> still, if you only wanted hard enough you could somehow manage to buy = your >>>> tools no matter how expensive they may have been (not talking about a = 50000 >>>> bucks SGI workstation and another 70000 bucks Power Animator license, >>>> obviously; more like a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). And instead of t= he >>>> annual upgrade death spiral we have now, they got an update every 2 ye= ars >>>> and you actually had time to learn them and hone your skills and save = the >>>> money. It works in many ways, if you get my meaning.... And seeing how= many >>>> people struggle with even the simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's= just >>>> a "literacy" people can pick up or it produces more talent in any way.= .. To >>>> me, it still comes down to this: People, who can't draw a straight lin= e >>>> with a pencil probably shouldn't call themselves "motiongraphics artis= t". >>>> Or in other words: I consider a classical training/ education just as >>>> important or even more important than just hacking around on the compu= ter >>>> or doing odd things with your digital camera.... >>>> =20 >>>> Mylenium >>>> =20 >>>> [Pour Myl=E8ne, ange sur terre] >>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>> www.mylenium.de >>>> James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 08:= 37 >>>> geschrieben: >>>> You are describing film/video Production in general. And film/video >>>> production is now just another literacy, like writing, that people gro= w up >>>> with. So, yes, there are a lot of folks who just start doing it, and w= e are >>>> awash in competition. There is a tremendous amount of incompetence. Bu= t at >>>> the same time if you have the potential for talent you are not exclude= d by >>>> inaccessibility to tools. I'll take the trade off. I find today to be = just >>>> as exciting a time as the 90's were. >>>> =20 >>>> James >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Jan 31, 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote: >>>> You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all >>>> sentimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at be= ing >>>> "just another software" that is being used by more people with no tale= nt or >>>> skills than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just the way= it >>>> is, sadly... >>>> =20 >>>> Mylenium >>>> =20 >>>> [Pour Myl=E8ne, ange sur terre] >>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>> www.mylenium.de >>>> Jim Lang < james.c.lang@gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 06:29 >>>> geschrieben: =20 >>>>> > Darn- Totally missed it. >>>>> > I've been thinking about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery >>>>> > workshop, and >>>>> > the teacher kept telling us that if anyone asked "how'd you do that= !" >>>>> > To say you don't remember. >>>>> > This got me thinking about how in the beginnings of AE, that anal, >>>>> > secretiveness was the polar opposite and you could go online any ti= me >>>>> > day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a TSassoo= n, >>>>> > or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And because of that, >>>>> > AE took off, attracted geniuses from all over, and and made history= of >>>>> > all of the old guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end >>>>> > equipment.=20 >>>>> > That was a dazzling era. >>>>> > Of course, nothing this great lasts. >>>>> > I've been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a >>>>> > worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last projects= I >>>>> > worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It was for a fast >>>>> > turnaround network news show, and the dude did certain things wrong >>>>> > then sneakily made layers invisible. All designed to get the >>>>> > producers on t >>>>> > he phone to get him back. I pointed out all of his shenanigans to t= he >>>>> > creative director. But back to the point. Way back in the early >>>>> > beginnings, what a classy group. >>>>> > =20 >>>>>> > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> wrote: >>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>>> > >> In case this event tomorrow hasn't been posted on this list ye= t: >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe After Effects >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> REGISTER NOW: http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> About 12 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interact= ive >>>>>>> history of=20 >>>>>>> > >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We welcome questions = from >>>>>>> the =20 >>>>>>> > >> audience via the chat pod. >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> -DaveS >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> =20 >>>>>>> > >> +---End of message---+ >>>>>>> > >> To unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.= tv> >>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>> > > =20 >>>>>> > > +---End of message---+ >>>>>> > > To unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv= > >>>>> > =20 >>>>> > +---End of message---+ >>>>> > To unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv> >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Animator & Editor >>>> www.teddygage.com >>>> Brooklyn=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Chris >> Mettle.com >> Skype: Mettlecom >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --B_3442592261_7870847 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I wonder if a book on medioc= rity would sell?  Working title:  "Ordinary People".
-enrique


From: Carey Dissmore <carey@imugonline.com>
Reply-To: = After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Date: Friday, February 1, 2013 3:05 PM
To: = After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: = Re: [AE] The History of Adobe After Effects

=
You guys should really read this book. It is absolutely= brilliant and I just can't recommend it enough. 

Carey=

On Feb 1, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Chris Meyer <chris@crishdesign.com> wrote:
I think there are artists that have more of a knack (or "natural t= alent") than others - but I've also both learned and observed that even if y= ou have that natural talent, it can be improved through study and practice. = And meanwhile, those with the natural benefits can still learn most or all o= f what's needed.

 - Chris


On Feb 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Chris Bobotis wrote:<= /div>
In my experience, I have yet to meet an artist that has com= e by it ˘naturally˘. One way or another you need to put in the tim= e, be it ˘formal˘ or ˘informal˘ training. I think the 10= ,000 hour rule applies to art as much as anything else. In other words you n= eed to put in the time and effort. I have worked with brilliant artists, som= e with and some without any formal training. The ones without any formal tra= ining had still put in the time. 

Some take to conve= ntional teaching methods and a cartesian approach others just do not. I cann= ot say one is better than the other. The end result is what counts, at least= to me.

Cheers,
Chris
mettle.com
On 2013-02-01, at 1:36 PM, sean cu= sson wrote:

I get it and agree with you that education is a= lways important. I just took issue with anyone actually defining the term ar= tist. I think 2 of the defining characteristics of success in this business = are awareness and talent. Both of which can be greatly enhanced by education= but can also have been come by naturally. 



On 2013-02-01, at 11:39 AM, mylenium@mylenium.de wrote:

I think my point is more that s= ome people are devoid of both - either an education that allows them to prov= ide "art" (craftsmanship/ tricks of the trade/ services whatever you wanna c= all it) in a certain manner or an "intuitive", inate understanding of "art" = - and those should actually never go near a computer or use certain tools. Y= ou're not getting an argument about that one can make up for the other, but = I would still consider a certain level of education important. Even if you a= re an artist who does wonderful paintings just from his gut feeling, it help= s if you can rationally explain some color theory, if you get my meaning. An= d let's not lose sight that everything we do is also a technical process no = matter what. So if not on the artsy side, at least a well-founded knowledge = helps to let people see your creation. If you wouldn't know how to get it on= YouTube, you could producxe al lthe most beautiful shorts and the world sti= ll wouldn't take any notice of you as an "artist"...
 
<= div>Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=E8ne, ange sur terre] 
--= --------------------------------------- 
www.mylenium.de

sean cusson <scusson@mac.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 17:24 geschrieben:=
I think trying to define the word "artist" is pretty useless. In my op= inion, if you create something that another person sees value in then you ar= e an artist. Art is completely subjective so how could anyone possibly try t= o define the term "artist" or the requirements necessary to achieve said tit= le? I know tons of people (including myself) who have only gone to high= school and yet have somehow MIRACULOUSLY carved out a decent living for the= mselves. There are definitely advantages to pursuing an art education (in wh= atever discipline you choose) but to say you are not an artist if you don't = have formal training is as antiquated as the first version of AE itself. 

On 2013-02-01, at 10:47 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:
"When I started out = as an 3d artist 19 years ago"... 
 
You wouldn't ha= ppen to be typing this from the retirement home computer, would you? 
 
You're certainly grumpy enough to be a grand= father... 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 1= , 2013, at 10:38 AM, " mylenium@mylenium.de" <= ; mylenium@mylenium.de> wrote: 
= I tend to see it from a different angle, coming from a 3D graphics backgroun= d. I don't think anyone was actually excluded in the past. People just take = affordable equipment or things like discounted education versions for grante= d these days, luxuries we never had. There wasn't even something like Blende= r around when I started out as an 3D artist 19 years ago. And still, if you = only wanted hard enough you could somehow manage to buy your tools no matter= how expensive they may have been (not talking about a 50000 bucks SGI works= tation and another 70000 bucks Power Animator license, obviously; more like = a 3000 bucks Lightwave license). And instead of the annual upgrade death spi= ral we have now, they got an update every 2 years and you actually had time = to learn them and hone your skills and save the money. It works in many ways= , if you get my meaning.... And seeing how many people struggle with even th= e simplest tutorials, I'm not sure if it's just a "literacy" people can pick= up or it produces more talent in any way... To me, it still comes down to t= his: People, who can't draw a straight line with a pencil probably shouldn't= call themselves "motiongraphics artist". Or in other words: I consider a cl= assical training/ education just as important or even more important than ju= st hacking around on the computer or doing odd things with your digital came= ra....
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=E8n= e, ange sur terre] 
----------------------------------------- <= br>www.mylenium.de
= James Culbertson < albion@speakeasy.net> h= at am 1. Februar 2013 um 08:37 geschrieben:
You are describing film/vide= o Production in general. And film/video production is now just another liter= acy, like writing, that people grow up with. So, yes, there are a lot of fol= ks who just start doing it, and we are awash in competition. There is a= tremendous amount of incompetence. But at the same time if you have th= e potential for talent you are not excluded by inaccessibility to tools. I'l= l take the trade off. I find today to be just as exciting a time as the 90's= were.
 
James
 

On Jan 31,= 2013, at 11:03 PM, mylenium@mylenium.de wr= ote:
You're talking like people at the retirement home getting all s= entimental... ;-) Things will never be the same. AE has arrived at being "ju= st another software" that is being used by more people with no talent or ski= lls than by ones who actually intimately know it. It's just the way it is, s= adly...
 
Mylenium
 
[Pour Myl=E8= ne, ange sur terre]   
-----------------------------------= ------   
www.mylenium.de
Jim Lang < james.c.lang@= gmail.com> hat am 1. Februar 2013 um 06:29 geschrieben:  &n= bsp;
> Darn- Totally missed it.   
> I've been th= inking about the AE history lately. I was at a pottery   
= > workshop, and   
> the teacher kept telling us tha= t if anyone asked "how'd you do that!"   
> To say you = don't remember.   
> This got me thinking about how in = the beginnings of AE, that anal,   
> secretiveness was= the polar opposite and you could go online any time   
&g= t; day or night, and a Trish Meyer would always help out. Or a TSassoon,&nbs= p;  
> or a Brian Maffitt. And "secrets" were taboo. And bec= ause of that,   
> AE took off, attracted geniuses from= all over, and and made history of   
> all of the old = guard dinosaurs and their secrets and high-end   
> equ= ipment.   
> That was a dazzling era.   =
> Of course, nothing this great lasts.   
> I've= been at this long enough to be able to tell the ethics of a  &nbs= p;
> worker by just looking at his/her profect. One of the last projec= ts I   
> worked in was unbelievably booby trapped. It = was for a fast   
> turnaround network news show, and t= he dude did certain things wrong   
> then sneakily mad= e layers invisible. All designed to get the   
> produc= ers on t   
> he phone to get him back. I pointed out a= ll of his shenanigans to the   
> creative director. Bu= t back to the point. Way back in the early   
> beginni= ngs, what a classy group.   
>   
>= ; > On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:46 PM, David Simons < ae@cosa.com> wrote:  &n= bsp;
> >   
> >> In case this event tomo= rrow hasn't been posted on this list yet:   
> >>=    
> >> ASK A VIDEO PRO: The History of Adobe Af= ter Effects   
> >>   
> >= ;> Thursday, January 31st, 2013 at 10:00am PST   
> = >>   
> >> REGISTER NOW:   <= a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd">http://adobe.ly/p6ZMbd&n= bsp;  
> >>   
> >> About 1= 2 hours from now, Dan Wilk & I will present an interactive history of&nb= sp;  
> >> AE, including demos of the old versions. We= welcome questions from the   
> >> audience via = the chat pod.   
> >>   
> &= gt;> -DaveS   
> >>   
> = >>   
> >>   
> >&g= t; +---End of message---+   
> >> To unsubscribe = send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   <= br>> >   
> >   
> > += ---End of message---+   
> > To unsubscribe send any= message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>   
>&= nbsp;  
> +---End of message---+   
> T= o unsubscribe send any message to < ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>
&= nbsp;

-- 
Animator & Editor 
www.teddygage.com 
Brooklyn 


Cheers,
Chris
Skype: Mettlecom





 --B_3442592261_7870847--