Return-Path: Received: from mta11.charter.net ([216.33.127.80] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 5048897 for ae-list@media-motion.tv; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:14:06 +0200 Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130423192225.RPYM6169.mta11.charter.net@imp11> for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:22:25 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.3] ([66.215.90.127]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id TXNQ1l00D2krwcJ05XNQ3o; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:22:25 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=dIr+A5lb c=1 sm=1 a=DLIyoRXhys9G3DL5n+qGgw==:17 a=1tg4kbraGGAA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=NQ4Tn3EpNbEA:10 a=a8lACCHcAAAA:8 a=9OStO1PmAAAA:20 a=PDdjCs-pAAAA:8 a=3Qsfff1uvCcB_1HHiiQA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=RFaxJ1YKWH0A:10 a=p3b_eOXHgIUA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=HHGDD-5mAAAA:8 a=x7e7LKIEAAAA:8 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=i1zE5R4R5dEA:10 a=8rJGRtLvyuwA:10 a=EicyyhOrAtYGUOBS:21 a=DLIyoRXhys9G3DL5n+qGgw==:117 From: Jonathan Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--256796117 Subject: Re: [AE] Keying and other things Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:22:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: To: "After Effects Mail List" References: Message-Id: <7725DD6D-0371-4888-918D-A4D16A8D5DF4@charter.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) --Apple-Mail-2--256796117 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks Jack, Austin, Chris, Steve and Peter for the replies. Greatly = appreciated. I will jump back into that project tomorrow and will try = everything everyone has suggested. Jonathan On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe wrote: > There are some good tutorials on breaking the key up into several = precomps then bringing them all together in one final comp. I'm out but = maybe you can find via a Google search. Basically each area of the key = is refined specifically, then the areas are masked to blend together for = the best overall key. >=20 > Some real smart motion blur may help to reduce chatter, also key = correct edge blur to soften the edge of the key. >=20 > Jack Tunnicliffe > I'd reccomend some of the fxphd courses. The nuke classes especially = deal with some really difficult keys, as do the flame ane AE courses. = Check them out: >=20 > https://www.fxphd.com/fxphd/courseInfo.php On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Chris Zwar wrote: > You basically learn from difficult keys, sometimes there's no easy = solution. One thing to look at is pre-processing your footage before = keying. In many cases noise reduction or grain removal can have = dramatic results on your output. The standard AE grain removal plugin = can be bit coarse when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better = than nothing. Grain / noise management is really important for good = clean keys. >=20 > Apart from grain removal, for keylight you can try doing a hue shift = to increase the difference between the green channel and the red and = blue channels. This will give you a different result, but not = necessarily a better result. Keylight is a difference keyer - it looks = at the difference between the green channel and the red / blue channels. = Greenscreens are very rarely a purely 'digital' green - most greens = have a lot of red in them and are actually quite yellow. Apply the hue = / sat filter, and then apply the levels filter so you get a histogram. = You should be able to see three clear peaks in the histogram for red / = green / blue. Adjusting the hue will move these peaks, and shifting the = hue by a few degrees will move the red peak further away from the green, = and start moving the blue closer (or vice versa). Find a value that = puts the most difference between the green and the red/blue channels. = In SOME cases this will give you a better result with fine edge detail = such as hair. I've done a few side-by-side comparisons with hue shifted = green screens and they've been better about half the time. If you are = hue-shifting by a large amount you'll probably want to use the keyed = layer as an alpha matte for the original source. >=20 > -Chris On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Steve Oakley wrote: > Go try UltraKeyer in PP, I just used it on a job expecting I would use = it as the temp keyer for editorial, then pull "real" keys in AE using = whatever... well the final deliverable uses UltraKeyer :)... I did do a = single garbage mask or two, but that was about it. I'll also say the = green screen was well lit too. >=20 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DXlFlGSn2L6I >=20 > main camera for key shots was GH3, 2 60D's >=20 > S On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:13 AM, Peter Litwinowicz wrote: > The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it comes = to temporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing. >=20 > We recommend using our DE:Noise plugin for just this purpose=85 to = help temporally smooth for keying help. However, we use optical flow = motion estimation to do the temporal smoothing, which the AE grain = removal plugin does not, so I believe our temporal smoothing is better = at this problem. >=20 > Just a thought. And I'm biased of course. >=20 > http://www.revisionfx.com/products/denoise/ >=20 > Pete Litwinowicz > RE:Vision Effects, Inc. >=20 > On 2013-04-19, at 10:10 PM, Jonathan wrote: >=20 >> Good day to all. >>=20 >> I've been using Keylight to do some green screen work and, basically = starting from scratch, went through a number of tutorials, including = three from The Foundry for Nuke but which are applicable to After = Effects. All the tutorials, however, are general and don't deal much = with pulling difficult keys, such as shots of little girls with frizzy = hair. I've gone about as far as I can go with what I've learned and my = results aren't very good: the hair in the transparent areas chatters = like crazy. Fortunately I'm scaling from full HD down to 720 X 405 so = some of the noise becomes a minor problem. However, there is one shot = that is really not acceptable. >>=20 >> I'm using a pre-comped layer to create a matte for the same layer = below it, trying everything I can but still missing it. I realize this = may be difficult to answer without seeing the project, but any tips = anyone might want to offer would be much appreciated. (CS 6, Keylight = 1.2) Thanks in advance. >>=20 >> Jonathan >>=20 >>=20 >> JONATHAN PENZNER >> VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION GRAPHICS =95 DESIGN >>=20 >> | STUDIO 626 345-0285 | >> | CELL 818 321-2890 | >>=20 >> sureal@charter.net --Apple-Mail-2--256796117 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
There are some good tutorials on = breaking the key up into several precomps then bringing them all = together in one final comp. I'm out but maybe you can find via a Google = search. Basically each area of the key is refined specifically, then the = areas are masked to blend together for the best overall = key.

Some real smart motion blur may help to = reduce chatter, also key correct edge blur to soften the edge of the = key.

Jack = Tunnicliffe


I'd reccomend some of the fxphd = courses.  The nuke classes especially deal with some really = difficult keys, as do the flame ane AE courses.  Check them = out:


= On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Chris Zwar wrote:

You basically learn from = difficult keys, sometimes there's no easy solution.  One thing to = look at is pre-processing your footage before keying.  In many = cases noise reduction or grain removal can have dramatic results on your = output.  The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse = when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing. =  Grain / noise management is really important for good clean = keys.

Apart from grain removal, for keylight you can = try doing a hue shift to increase the difference between the green = channel and the red and blue channels.  This will give you a = different result, but not necessarily a better result.  Keylight is = a difference keyer - it looks at the difference between the green = channel and the red / blue channels.  Greenscreens are very rarely = a purely 'digital' green - most greens have a lot of red in them and are = actually quite yellow.  Apply the hue / sat filter, and then apply = the levels filter so you get a histogram.  You should be able to = see three clear peaks in the histogram for red / green / blue. =  Adjusting the hue will move these peaks, and shifting the hue by a = few degrees will move the red peak further away from the green, and = start moving the blue closer (or vice versa).  Find a value that = puts the most difference between the green and the red/blue channels. =  In SOME cases this will give you a better result with fine edge = detail such as hair.  I've done a few side-by-side comparisons with = hue shifted green screens and they've been better about half the time. =  If you are hue-shifting by a large amount you'll probably want to = use the keyed layer as an alpha matte for the original = source.

-Chris

=
On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Steve Oakley wrote:

Go try UltraKeyer in PP, I just = used it on a job expecting I would use it as the temp keyer for = editorial, then pull "real" keys in AE using whatever... well the final = deliverable uses UltraKeyer :)... I did do a single garbage mask or two, = but that was about it. I'll also say the green screen was well lit = too.


main camera for = key shots was GH3, 2 = 60D's

S
On Apr 23, = 2013, at 11:13 AM, Peter Litwinowicz wrote:

 The standard AE grain removal plugin can = be bit coarse when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better than = nothing.

We recommend using our = DE:Noise plugin for just this purpose=85 to help temporally smooth for = keying help.  However, we use optical flow motion estimation to do = the temporal smoothing, which the AE grain removal plugin does not, so I = believe our temporal smoothing is better at this = problem.

Just a thought.  And I'm biased = of course.


Pete = Litwinowicz
RE:Vision Effects, = Inc.

On 2013-04-19, at 10:10 PM, = Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> = wrote:

Good day to = all.

I've been using Keylight to do some green screen = work and, basically starting from scratch, went through a number of = tutorials, including three from The Foundry for Nuke but which are = applicable to After Effects. All the tutorials, however, are general and = don't deal much with pulling difficult keys, such as shots of little = girls with frizzy hair. I've gone about as far as I can go with what = I've learned and my results aren't very good: the hair in the = transparent areas chatters like crazy. Fortunately I'm scaling from full = HD down to 720 X 405 so some of the noise becomes a minor problem. = However, there is one shot that is really not = acceptable.

I'm using a pre-comped layer to = create a matte for the same layer below it, trying everything I can but = still missing it. I realize this may be difficult to answer without = seeing the project, but any tips anyone might want to offer would be = much appreciated. (CS 6, Keylight 1.2) Thanks in = advance.

Jonathan


VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION = GRAPHICS =95 DESIGN

| STUDIO      626 = 345-0285 |
 CELL   =         818 = 321-2890 |

=

= --Apple-Mail-2--256796117--