Return-Path: Received: from eatspam.slcc.edu ([144.35.15.69] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 5048933 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:02:27 +0200 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1366747844-0437c607124eaec0001-edO5QZ Received: from vCAS4.slcc.int (vcas4.slcc.int [10.1.11.55]) by eatspam.slcc.edu with ESMTP id lBFP0l8UprLZz4YH for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:10:44 -0600 (MDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: John.Morgan@slcc.edu Received: from EXCH10B.SLCC.int ([169.254.2.62]) by vCAS4.slcc.int ([10.1.11.55]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:10:45 -0600 From: John Morgan To: After Effects Mail List Subject: RE: [AE] Keying and other things Thread-Topic: [AE] Keying and other things X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [AE] Keying and other things Thread-Index: AQHOQFfhGchipXFUHEOEIFEGezZa+pjkNmWQ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:10:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.11.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D4D26B3CC3D8E846A571E8B8463E11DA011D2AEXCH10Bslccint_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Barracuda-Connect: vcas4.slcc.int[10.1.11.55] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1366747844 X-Barracuda-URL: http://eatspam.slcc.edu:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at slcc.edu X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.128961 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message --_000_D4D26B3CC3D8E846A571E8B8463E11DA011D2AEXCH10Bslccint_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Superb responses from all these fine folks but for the elephant in the room= here's my short list of sound advice for the client/shooter: -Use a camera with the highest possible color sampling-4:2:2 or higher pref= erred. Surprisingly few cameras do 4:2:2 or higher -Use lowest possible gain setting on camera -Light the green screen as evenly as possible both around talent and to all= edges of any portion of the screen that appear in the shot (pretend I said= that twice!) Usually takes key, fill, backlights and typically an addition= al light just for the green screen. -Keep the screen 8' to 10' away from talent/subject. This allows for sharp = focus on talent as well as depth of field blur on fabric of screen - helps = keep noise out of the green area. Also helps minimize green backlight/glow = on talent -Set the camera for short DOF shooting -Use two backlights, one on each side of talent-for proper look and to mini= mize green reflection from screen on talent. -Use a clean green screen When these basics are carefully followed, you'll be able to use a single in= stance of a key effect on a single clip/layer. John From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On Behalf Of= Jonathan Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:22 PM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Keying and other things Thanks Jack, Austin, Chris, Steve and Peter for the replies. Greatly apprec= iated. I will jump back into that project tomorrow and will try everything = everyone has suggested. Jonathan On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe wrote: There are some good tutorials on breaking the key up into several precomps = then bringing them all together in one final comp. I'm out but maybe you ca= n find via a Google search. Basically each area of the key is refined speci= fically, then the areas are masked to blend together for the best overall k= ey. Some real smart motion blur may help to reduce chatter, also key correct ed= ge blur to soften the edge of the key. Jack Tunnicliffe I'd reccomend some of the fxphd courses. The nuke classes especially deal = with some really difficult keys, as do the flame ane AE courses. Check the= m out: https://www.fxphd.com/fxphd/courseInfo.php On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Chris Zwar wrote: You basically learn from difficult keys, sometimes there's no easy solution= . One thing to look at is pre-processing your footage before keying. In m= any cases noise reduction or grain removal can have dramatic results on you= r output. The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it c= omes to temporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing. Grain / noise ma= nagement is really important for good clean keys. Apart from grain removal, for keylight you can try doing a hue shift to inc= rease the difference between the green channel and the red and blue channel= s. This will give you a different result, but not necessarily a better res= ult. Keylight is a difference keyer - it looks at the difference between t= he green channel and the red / blue channels. Greenscreens are very rarely= a purely 'digital' green - most greens have a lot of red in them and are a= ctually quite yellow. Apply the hue / sat filter, and then apply the level= s filter so you get a histogram. You should be able to see three clear pea= ks in the histogram for red / green / blue. Adjusting the hue will move th= ese peaks, and shifting the hue by a few degrees will move the red peak fur= ther away from the green, and start moving the blue closer (or vice versa).= Find a value that puts the most difference between the green and the red/= blue channels. In SOME cases this will give you a better result with fine = edge detail such as hair. I've done a few side-by-side comparisons with hu= e shifted green screens and they've been better about half the time. If yo= u are hue-shifting by a large amount you'll probably want to use the keyed = layer as an alpha matte for the original source. -Chris On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Steve Oakley wrote: Go try UltraKeyer in PP, I just used it on a job expecting I would use it a= s the temp keyer for editorial, then pull "real" keys in AE using whatever.= .. well the final deliverable uses UltraKeyer :)... I did do a single garba= ge mask or two, but that was about it. I'll also say the green screen was w= ell lit too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DXlFlGSn2L6I main camera for key shots was GH3, 2 60D's S On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:13 AM, Peter Litwinowicz wrote: The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it comes to te= mporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing. We recommend using our DE:Noise plugin for just this purpose... to help tem= porally smooth for keying help. However, we use optical flow motion estima= tion to do the temporal smoothing, which the AE grain removal plugin does n= ot, so I believe our temporal smoothing is better at this problem. Just a thought. And I'm biased of course. http://www.revisionfx.com/products/denoise/ Pete Litwinowicz RE:Vision Effects, Inc. On 2013-04-19, at 10:10 PM, Jonathan > wrote: Good day to all. I've been using Keylight to do some green screen work and, basically starti= ng from scratch, went through a number of tutorials, including three from T= he Foundry for Nuke but which are applicable to After Effects. All the tuto= rials, however, are general and don't deal much with pulling difficult keys= , such as shots of little girls with frizzy hair. I've gone about as far as= I can go with what I've learned and my results aren't very good: the hair = in the transparent areas chatters like crazy. Fortunately I'm scaling from = full HD down to 720 X 405 so some of the noise becomes a minor problem. How= ever, there is one shot that is really not acceptable. I'm using a pre-comped layer to create a matte for the same layer below it,= trying everything I can but still missing it. I realize this may be diffic= ult to answer without seeing the project, but any tips anyone might want to= offer would be much appreciated. (CS 6, Keylight 1.2) Thanks in advance. Jonathan JONATHAN PENZNER VIDEO EDITING * MOTION GRAPHICS * DESIGN | STUDIO 626 345-0285 | | CELL 818 321-2890 | sureal@charter.net This message, and any attachments, is intended only for the use of the addr= essee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential or ot= herwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this= e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any una= uthorized use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message = is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please no= tify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail and any attachments= from your system.= --_000_D4D26B3CC3D8E846A571E8B8463E11DA011D2AEXCH10Bslccint_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Superb responses from all= these fine folks but for the elephant in the room here’s my short li= st of sound advice for the client/shooter:

 <= /p>

-Use a camera with the hi= ghest possible color sampling—4:2:2 or higher preferred. Surprisingly= few cameras do 4:2:2 or higher

-Use lowest possible gain= setting on camera

-Light the green screen a= s evenly as possible both around talent and to all edges of any portion of = the screen that appear in the shot (pretend I said that twice!) Usually takes key, fill, backlights and typically an additional li= ght just for the green screen.

-Keep the screen 8’= to 10’ away from talent/subject. This allows for sharp focus on tale= nt as well as depth of field blur on fabric of screen – helps keep no= ise out of the green area. Also helps minimize green backlight/glow on talent<= o:p>

-Set the camera for short= DOF shooting

-Use two backlights, one = on each side of talent—for proper look and to minimize green reflecti= on from screen on talent.

-Use a clean green screen=

 <= /p>

When these basics are car= efully followed, you’ll be able to use a single instance of a key eff= ect on a single clip/layer.

 <= /p>

John

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: After Ef= fects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:22 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Keying and other things

 

Thanks Jack, Austin, Chris, Steve and Peter for the = replies. Greatly appreciated. I will jump back into that project tomorrow a= nd will try everything everyone has suggested.

 

 

Jonathan

 

 

On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe wrote= :



There are some good tutorials on breaking the key up= into several precomps then bringing them all together in one final comp. I= 'm out but maybe you can find via a Google search. Basically each area of t= he key is refined specifically, then the areas are masked to blend together for the best overall key.

 

Some real smart motion blur may help to reduce chatt= er, also key correct edge blur to soften the edge of the key.

 

Jack Tunnicliffe

 

 

I'd reccomend some of the fxphd courses.  The n= uke classes especially deal with some really difficult keys, as do the flam= e ane AE courses.  Check them out:

 

 

On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Chris Zwar wrote:=



You basically learn from difficult keys, sometimes t= here's no easy solution.  One thing to look at is pre-processing your = footage before keying.  In many cases noise reduction or grain removal= can have dramatic results on your output.  The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it comes to tempor= al smoothing, but it's better than nothing.  Grain / noise management = is really important for good clean keys.

 

Apart from grain removal, for keylight you can try d= oing a hue shift to increase the difference between the green channel and t= he red and blue channels.  This will give you a different result, but = not necessarily a better result.  Keylight is a difference keyer - it looks at the difference between the green chann= el and the red / blue channels.  Greenscreens are very rarely a purely= 'digital' green - most greens have a lot of red in them and are actually q= uite yellow.  Apply the hue / sat filter, and then apply the levels filter so you get a histogram.  You should = be able to see three clear peaks in the histogram for red / green / blue. &= nbsp;Adjusting the hue will move these peaks, and shifting the hue by a few= degrees will move the red peak further away from the green, and start moving the blue closer (or vice versa).  Fi= nd a value that puts the most difference between the green and the red/blue= channels.  In SOME cases this will give you a better result with fine= edge detail such as hair.  I've done a few side-by-side comparisons with hue shifted green screens and they've been b= etter about half the time.  If you are hue-shifting by a large amount = you'll probably want to use the keyed layer as an alpha matte for the origi= nal source.

 

-Chris

 

On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Steve Oakley wrote:



Go try UltraKeyer in PP, I just used it on a job exp= ecting I would use it as the temp keyer for editorial, then pull "real= " keys in AE using whatever... well the final deliverable uses UltraKe= yer :)... I did do a single garbage mask or two, but that was about it. I'll also say the green screen was well lit to= o.

 

 

main camera for key shots was GH3, 2 60D's

 

S

 

 

On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:13 AM, Peter Litwin= owicz wrote:



 The standard AE grain re= moval plugin can be bit coarse when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it'= s better than nothing.

 

We recommend using our DE:Nois= e plugin for just this purpose… to help temporally smooth for keying = help.  However, we use optical flow motion estimation to do the temporal smoothing, which the AE grain removal plugin does not, so I belie= ve our temporal smoothing is better at this problem.

 

Just a thought.  And I'm = biased of course.

 

 

Pete Litwinowicz

RE:Vision Effects, Inc.

 

 




On 2013-04-19, at 10:10 PM, Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> wrote:

Good day to all.

 

I've been using Keylight to do some green screen wor= k and, basically starting from scratch, went through a number of tutorials,= including three from The Foundry for Nuke but which are applicable to Afte= r Effects. All the tutorials, however, are general and don't deal much with pulling difficult keys, such as shots= of little girls with frizzy hair. I've gone about as far as I can go with = what I've learned and my results aren't very good: the hair in the transpar= ent areas chatters like crazy. Fortunately I'm scaling from full HD down to 720 X 405 so some of the noise becomes a = minor problem. However, there is one shot that is really not acceptable.

 

I'm using a pre-comped layer to create a matte for t= he same layer below it, trying everything I can but still missing it. I rea= lize this may be difficult to answer without seeing the project, but any ti= ps anyone might want to offer would be much appreciated. (CS 6, Keylight 1.2) Thanks in advance.

 

Jonathan

 

 

JONATHAN PENZNER=

VIDEO EDITING • MO= TION GRAPHICS • DESIGN

 =

| STUDIO   &nb= sp;  626 345-0285 |

| CELL    = ;       818 321-2890 |

 

 


This message, and any attachments, is intended only for the use of the = addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential o= r otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of = this e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this mess= age is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, pleas= e notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail and any attachm= ents from your system.  ­­   --_000_D4D26B3CC3D8E846A571E8B8463E11DA011D2AEXCH10Bslccint_--