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[92.118.233.240]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f4sm472779bkz.14.2013.04.24.04.49.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5177C768.9050704@gmail.com> Disposition-Notification-To: Evan Fotis Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:52:08 +0300 From: Evan Fotis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.17) Gecko/20080914 Lightning/0.9 Thunderbird/2.0.0.17 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Keying and other things References: In-Reply-To: X-TagToolbar-Keys: D20130424145208349 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030105070709010007090408" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030105070709010007090408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit great tips! Does any of you have first hand experience with any DSLRs that shoot/capture TRUE 422 (ie not 4:2:0 output recorded by ninja etc as 4:2:2 as is the case with most D800/600/GH3) On 23-Apr-13 23:10, John Morgan wrote: > > Superb responses from all these fine folks but for the elephant in the > room here’s my short list of sound advice for the client/shooter: > > -Use a camera with the highest possible color sampling—4:2:2 or higher > preferred. Surprisingly few cameras do 4:2:2 or higher > > -Use lowest possible gain setting on camera > > -Light the green screen as evenly as possible both around talent and > to all edges of any portion of the screen that appear in the shot > (pretend I said that twice!) Usually takes key, fill, backlights and > typically an additional light just for the green screen. > > -Keep the screen 8’ to 10’ away from talent/subject. This allows for > sharp focus on talent as well as depth of field blur on fabric of > screen – helps keep noise out of the green area. Also helps minimize > green backlight/glow on talent > > -Set the camera for short DOF shooting > > -Use two backlights, one on each side of talent—for proper look and to > minimize green reflection from screen on talent. > > -Use a clean green screen > > When these basics are carefully followed, you’ll be able to use a > single instance of a key effect on a single clip/layer. > > John > > *From:*After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] *On > Behalf Of *Jonathan > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:22 PM > *To:* After Effects Mail List > *Subject:* Re: [AE] Keying and other things > > Thanks Jack, Austin, Chris, Steve and Peter for the replies. Greatly > appreciated. I will jump back into that project tomorrow and will try > everything everyone has suggested. > > Jonathan > > On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe wrote: > > > > There are some good tutorials on breaking the key up into several > precomps then bringing them all together in one final comp. I'm out > but maybe you can find via a Google search. Basically each area of the > key is refined specifically, then the areas are masked to blend > together for the best overall key. > > Some real smart motion blur may help to reduce chatter, also key > correct edge blur to soften the edge of the key. > > Jack Tunnicliffe > > I'd reccomend some of the fxphd courses. The nuke classes > especially deal with some really difficult keys, as do the flame > ane AE courses. Check them out: > > https://www.fxphd.com/fxphd/courseInfo.php > > On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Chris Zwar wrote: > > > > You basically learn from difficult keys, sometimes there's no easy > solution. One thing to look at is pre-processing your footage before > keying. In many cases noise reduction or grain removal can have > dramatic results on your output. The standard AE grain removal plugin > can be bit coarse when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better > than nothing. Grain / noise management is really important for good > clean keys. > > Apart from grain removal, for keylight you can try doing a hue shift > to increase the difference between the green channel and the red and > blue channels. This will give you a different result, but not > necessarily a better result. Keylight is a difference keyer - it > looks at the difference between the green channel and the red / blue > channels. Greenscreens are very rarely a purely 'digital' green - > most greens have a lot of red in them and are actually quite yellow. > Apply the hue / sat filter, and then apply the levels filter so you > get a histogram. You should be able to see three clear peaks in the > histogram for red / green / blue. Adjusting the hue will move these > peaks, and shifting the hue by a few degrees will move the red peak > further away from the green, and start moving the blue closer (or vice > versa). Find a value that puts the most difference between the green > and the red/blue channels. In SOME cases this will give you a better > result with fine edge detail such as hair. I've done a few > side-by-side comparisons with hue shifted green screens and they've > been better about half the time. If you are hue-shifting by a large > amount you'll probably want to use the keyed layer as an alpha matte > for the original source. > > -Chris > > On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Steve Oakley wrote: > > > > Go try UltraKeyer in PP, I just used it on a job expecting I would use > it as the temp keyer for editorial, then pull "real" keys in AE using > whatever... well the final deliverable uses UltraKeyer :)... I did do > a single garbage mask or two, but that was about it. I'll also say the > green screen was well lit too. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlFlGSn2L6I > > main camera for key shots was GH3, 2 60D's > > S > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:13 AM, Peter Litwinowicz wrote: > > > > The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it > comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing. > > We recommend using our DE:Noise plugin for just this purpose… to help > temporally smooth for keying help. However, we use optical flow > motion estimation to do the temporal smoothing, which the AE grain > removal plugin does not, so I believe our temporal smoothing is better > at this problem. > > Just a thought. And I'm biased of course. > > http://www.revisionfx.com/products/denoise/ > > Pete Litwinowicz > > RE:Vision Effects, Inc. > > > > > On 2013-04-19, at 10:10 PM, Jonathan > wrote: > > Good day to all. > > I've been using Keylight to do some green screen work and, > basically starting from scratch, went through a number of > tutorials, including three from The Foundry for Nuke but which are > applicable to After Effects. All the tutorials, however, are > general and don't deal much with pulling difficult keys, such as > shots of little girls with frizzy hair. I've gone about as far as > I can go with what I've learned and my results aren't very good: > the hair in the transparent areas chatters like crazy. Fortunately > I'm scaling from full HD down to 720 X 405 so some of the noise > becomes a minor problem. However, there is one shot that is really > not acceptable. > > I'm using a pre-comped layer to create a matte for the same layer > below it, trying everything I can but still missing it. I realize > this may be difficult to answer without seeing the project, but > any tips anyone might want to offer would be much appreciated. (CS > 6, Keylight 1.2) Thanks in advance. > > Jonathan > > *JONATHAN PENZNER* > > VIDEO EDITING • MOTION GRAPHICS • DESIGN > > | STUDIO 626 345-0285 | > > | CELL 818 321-2890 | > > _sureal@c harter.net > _ > > > This message, and any attachments, is intended only for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged and > confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution > or reproduction of this message is prohibited. If you have received > this communication in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail > and delete this e-mail and any attachments from your system. ­­ --------------030105070709010007090408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit great tips!
Does any of you have first hand experience with any DSLRs that shoot/capture TRUE 422 (ie not 4:2:0 output recorded by ninja etc as 4:2:2 as is the case with most D800/600/GH3)

On 23-Apr-13 23:10, John Morgan wrote:

Superb responses from all these fine folks but for the elephant in the room here’s my short list of sound advice for the client/shooter:

 

-Use a camera with the highest possible color sampling—4:2:2 or higher preferred. Surprisingly few cameras do 4:2:2 or higher

-Use lowest possible gain setting on camera

-Light the green screen as evenly as possible both around talent and to all edges of any portion of the screen that appear in the shot (pretend I said that twice!) Usually takes key, fill, backlights and typically an additional light just for the green screen.

-Keep the screen 8’ to 10’ away from talent/subject. This allows for sharp focus on talent as well as depth of field blur on fabric of screen – helps keep noise out of the green area. Also helps minimize green backlight/glow on talent

-Set the camera for short DOF shooting

-Use two backlights, one on each side of talent—for proper look and to minimize green reflection from screen on talent.

-Use a clean green screen

 

When these basics are carefully followed, you’ll be able to use a single instance of a key effect on a single clip/layer.

 

John

 

 

 

From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:22 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Keying and other things

 

Thanks Jack, Austin, Chris, Steve and Peter for the replies. Greatly appreciated. I will jump back into that project tomorrow and will try everything everyone has suggested.

 

 

Jonathan

 

 

On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Jack Tunnicliffe wrote:



There are some good tutorials on breaking the key up into several precomps then bringing them all together in one final comp. I'm out but maybe you can find via a Google search. Basically each area of the key is refined specifically, then the areas are masked to blend together for the best overall key.

 

Some real smart motion blur may help to reduce chatter, also key correct edge blur to soften the edge of the key.

 

Jack Tunnicliffe

 

 

I'd reccomend some of the fxphd courses.  The nuke classes especially deal with some really difficult keys, as do the flame ane AE courses.  Check them out:

 

 

On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Chris Zwar wrote:



You basically learn from difficult keys, sometimes there's no easy solution.  One thing to look at is pre-processing your footage before keying.  In many cases noise reduction or grain removal can have dramatic results on your output.  The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing.  Grain / noise management is really important for good clean keys.

 

Apart from grain removal, for keylight you can try doing a hue shift to increase the difference between the green channel and the red and blue channels.  This will give you a different result, but not necessarily a better result.  Keylight is a difference keyer - it looks at the difference between the green channel and the red / blue channels.  Greenscreens are very rarely a purely 'digital' green - most greens have a lot of red in them and are actually quite yellow.  Apply the hue / sat filter, and then apply the levels filter so you get a histogram.  You should be able to see three clear peaks in the histogram for red / green / blue.  Adjusting the hue will move these peaks, and shifting the hue by a few degrees will move the red peak further away from the green, and start moving the blue closer (or vice versa).  Find a value that puts the most difference between the green and the red/blue channels.  In SOME cases this will give you a better result with fine edge detail such as hair.  I've done a few side-by-side comparisons with hue shifted green screens and they've been better about half the time.  If you are hue-shifting by a large amount you'll probably want to use the keyed layer as an alpha matte for the original source.

 

-Chris

 

On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Steve Oakley wrote:



Go try UltraKeyer in PP, I just used it on a job expecting I would use it as the temp keyer for editorial, then pull "real" keys in AE using whatever... well the final deliverable uses UltraKeyer :)... I did do a single garbage mask or two, but that was about it. I'll also say the green screen was well lit too.

 

 

main camera for key shots was GH3, 2 60D's

 

S

 

 

On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:13 AM, Peter Litwinowicz wrote:



 The standard AE grain removal plugin can be bit coarse when it comes to temporal smoothing, but it's better than nothing.

 

We recommend using our DE:Noise plugin for just this purpose… to help temporally smooth for keying help.  However, we use optical flow motion estimation to do the temporal smoothing, which the AE grain removal plugin does not, so I believe our temporal smoothing is better at this problem.

 

Just a thought.  And I'm biased of course.

 

 

Pete Litwinowicz

RE:Vision Effects, Inc.

 

 




On 2013-04-19, at 10:10 PM, Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> wrote:

Good day to all.

 

I've been using Keylight to do some green screen work and, basically starting from scratch, went through a number of tutorials, including three from The Foundry for Nuke but which are applicable to After Effects. All the tutorials, however, are general and don't deal much with pulling difficult keys, such as shots of little girls with frizzy hair. I've gone about as far as I can go with what I've learned and my results aren't very good: the hair in the transparent areas chatters like crazy. Fortunately I'm scaling from full HD down to 720 X 405 so some of the noise becomes a minor problem. However, there is one shot that is really not acceptable.

 

I'm using a pre-comped layer to create a matte for the same layer below it, trying everything I can but still missing it. I realize this may be difficult to answer without seeing the project, but any tips anyone might want to offer would be much appreciated. (CS 6, Keylight 1.2) Thanks in advance.

 

Jonathan

 

 

JONATHAN PENZNER

VIDEO EDITING • MOTION GRAPHICS • DESIGN

 

| STUDIO      626 345-0285 |

| CELL           818 321-2890 |

 

 


This message, and any attachments, is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail and any attachments from your system.  ­­  

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