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[76.87.82.46]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id cq1sm8049833pbc.13.2013.05.11.16.47.31 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 11 May 2013 16:47:32 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montgomery Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_06D7BDD0-3562-4A91-92D4-DA7B5FC0BD5F" Message-Id: <911106DD-39F2-4DA8-8CEC-997496256623@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) Subject: Re: [AE] CS is DEAD Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 16:47:30 -0700 References: To: "After Effects Mail List" In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) --Apple-Mail=_06D7BDD0-3562-4A91-92D4-DA7B5FC0BD5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 It's interesting. My perspective on this couldn't be more different from = Dan's attitude, which comes across as quite negative and almost bitter. = Apologies if I misread you, Dan. Maybe my perception is clouded a bit by = my involvement in various software beta programs over the years, so I've = been lucky to gain some insights into the software dev process. = Basically, I've learned writing good software is hard and takes a lot of = good people. :) So that being said, I think the whole transition over the years on OS X = has, from an overall standpoint, been quite positive I'm always fairly cautious about updating and waiting for a several OS = X dot versions before diving in. For instance, while I've been using = Mountain Lion on my retina MBP in production, I just this week updated a = MacPro to Mountain Lion from Lion. And by following this procedure I = think over the years things have gone well for the most part. This = process has gotten easier over the years with the growth of social media = and the web...it's pretty easy to let the cutting edge folks pave the = way and learn from them. The toughest part for me as an Adobe user was the transition from carbon = to cocoa, where it was (I think) a couple of years before we saw the = Adobe apps re-written in Cocoa. But honestly, it was a much needed step = to move forward in the OS. Users were never forced to update the OS -- = they could have stuck with the OS and apps they had working. But I do = feel the software manufacturers *had* to rework their software in Cocoa = to move forward on the more modern OS. And it's paid off big time. Snow Leopard was also a bit rough, as there were some pretty big changes = in the software. However, some of this is directly useful in the Adobe = video apps, such as improved multi processing and better RAM management = (I believe). Looking back, and I may be on crack, but it was a pretty impressive = overall change to go from PowerPC only --> to PowerPC + Intel --> to = Intel with 64-bit support and a fully modern underlying linux-based = architecture. That's pretty amazing, honestly. I know there were some rough edges, but where we sit now looks pretty = good compared to Windows, imho.=20 Wish I could say the same about the hardware. :) John =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95 John Montgomery =20 co-founder of fxguide.com | fxphd.com twitter: johnmontfx On May 11, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Dann Stubbs = wrote: > probably some of the issues were with 10.6.x how it killed photoshop = CS3 (for no reason) and i think some other apps stopped working - it was = a pretty big deal when 10.6. came out and some under the hood changes = killed some (granted older) apps, the OS9 layer went away etc. stuff = like that... when you have tools that work but suddenly don't - it makes = that little upgrade much more expensive. >=20 > then with 10.7 etc how carbon(?) apps don't work anymore - like i have = some older apps that still work completely fine, web design stuff, my = version of filemaker etc that to upgrade a $29 OS means i have to spend = probably $1000 to upgrade or purchase new apps since these will not work = anymore >=20 > while yes that is a normal thing to update etc - (like i finally = needed to update my filemaker for other reasons), i like the upgrades to = me on MY terms when "I" need to upgrade them - not because some $29 OSX = upgrade now forces me to spend $1000 to do the exact same thing i was = doing before i got the new icon design in my OS interface. >=20 > and then a few months later some oversize app developer decides i need = to own their complete suite so i can now help pay for development costs = of a dozen apps that i won't or don't use... it's more expensive for me = and others, and like i said, many of us would prefer upgrades be on our = terms, when there is valid reason to upgrade or some VALID tool being = added that will benefit our workflow (not being able to tilt some faux = 3d box for example) >=20 > basically a lot of us who have been with apple or adobe since the = beginning (i still remember $1500 single adobe fonts - probably not many = do) are just over the "geek" phase where we need to (more typically, = feel the need to) have the latest and greatest of everything just to get = a job done. my PS 1.0 box is still sitting on my shelf... always kept it = for nostalgia. >=20 > think if every year they came out with some new nail that now you have = to go purchase a new hammer for, or all your tools etc... nobody would = accept that... but likewise it is pretty darn crazy how software = developers do that or get away with selling incomplete or buggy software = that they then give you the option of paying a large upgrade fee to get = a version of the tool you originally purchased (but may not have worked = properly) >=20 > the old joke about cars, would you buy a car that just stopped in the = middle of the road and needed to be restarted for no reason? or if you = can't use the trunk, turn signals and one left back door until you pay = for the car 2.0 upgrade? (which won't be available for another 9 months = and may in fact break some other currently working parts of your car) >=20 > basically software is becoming just another commodity, even the geeks = with the race to own the latest and greatest iphone so you can wave it = around the bar and feel "complete" in your life are starting to wane... = most "kids" nowadays are used to just having their software for free = anyway now, i wonder if adobe; once the cloud is implemented will start = selling ad space in the tool bar somewhere - since that is where most of = this Y generation is providing income for these new apps that are given = away for free (and the users pretty much expect them to be free) >=20 > wonder how the new "pay wall" attempts for these old school news = outlets will turn out - everyone is used to their news being free... = essentially a pay wall around a news outlet web site is not much = different then a cloud subscription - you want in, you pay. or everyone = just goes en masse and finds something else to fill the need. >=20 > probably the biggest attempt by the whole cloud move is to monetize = the warez people - which i would bet is huge and a substantial red = number on adobes income sheet. once you have to "phone home" and it most = likely records your IP, probably NIC and other personal info - it wont' = be as easy as those sharing sites with a serial number you can type in = and use the apps with for as long as you need. (though a great way to = seed the base out there and make your tools industry standards that = everyone if familiar with) >=20 > but i hold out faith that moves like this will just spawn a new breed = of app, just like back when AE 1.0 first came out from that tiny little = developer team - it wasn't a massive software developer that gave birth = to it - after all... adobe and it's massive size has not created from = scratch any hits like those - the huge corporate culture really seems = against that... no different then microsoft and adobe now primarily = PURCHASE any new apps then re-brand them - it's not being "born" in = house. just like disney now purchases or farms out most of it's creative = (or purchases pixar) to get the content they need to sell to keep that = massive payroll paid. >=20 > looking forward to seeing cloud evolve but mostly looking forward to = seeing what evolves next. >=20 > dann > ___________________________________________________________________ >=20 > Dann Stubbs - dann@darkskydigital.com > Dark Sky Digital - http://www.darkskydigital.com >=20 > http://www.RenderKing.com Value Priced C4D, VRAY Render Farm > ___________________________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 >=20 > On May 11, 2013, at 2:03 PM, Steve Oakley wrote: >=20 >> I'm not sure what problems you are referring to. I've done = 10.6->10.7->10.8 on the same drive doing normal update installs across 4 = machines. all has been fine. rarely does an OS update ever hurt anything = and more often than not fixes things. that said, in case no one noticed, = apple has removed web sharing from 10.8 system prefs. all the bits are = still there, but requires manual config to start up and run.... or buy X = server for 29.99 or so.=20 >>=20 >> S >>=20 >> On May 11, 2013, at 2:01 AM, adam mercado wrote: >>=20 >>> You misunderstood. I was not blaming third party software. It was = clearly the OS that caused the ills. I was merely expressing my = reluctance to upgrade ANYTHING anymore unless its critical to do so. I = got my production machine behaving and have left it in that state for = several years. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On May 10, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Rich Young wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> "Upgrading to Snow Leopard caused so many problems for me, nothing = worked." >>>>=20 >>>> Why risk a production machine for an unnecessary (mostly Mac) OS = update, and then blame 3rd-party software? >>>>=20 >>>> Nothing personal if I'm being insufferable, I've been burned in a = variety of ways by updates that zigged without concern for others. >>>>=20 >>>> And skipping back a bit, sure there are some concerns with CC = (http://img.ly/uGvQ), but there's nothing new with inevitable problems = opening files far between versions.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Rich >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95 John Montgomery =20 co-founder of fxguide.com | fxphd.com twitter: johnmontfx --Apple-Mail=_06D7BDD0-3562-4A91-92D4-DA7B5FC0BD5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=
John = Montgomery =         =               =  
co-founder = of fxguide.com | fxphd.com
twitter: johnmontfx

dann@darkskydigital.com> = wrote:

probably some of the = issues were with 10.6.x how it killed photoshop CS3 (for no reason) and = i think some other apps stopped working - it was a pretty big deal when = 10.6. came out and some under the hood changes killed some (granted = older) apps, the OS9 layer went away etc. stuff like that... when you = have tools that work but suddenly don't - it makes that little upgrade = much more expensive.

then with 10.7 etc how carbon(?) = apps don't work anymore - like i have some older apps that still work = completely fine, web design stuff, my version of filemaker etc that to = upgrade a $29 OS means i have to spend probably $1000 to upgrade or = purchase new apps since these will not work = anymore

while yes that is a normal thing to = update etc - (like i finally needed to update my filemaker for other = reasons), i like the upgrades to me on MY terms when "I" need to upgrade = them - not because some $29 OSX  upgrade now forces me to spend = $1000 to do the exact same thing i was doing before i got the new icon = design in my OS interface.

and then a few = months later some oversize app developer decides i need to own their = complete suite so i can now help pay for development costs of a dozen = apps that i won't or don't use... it's more expensive for me and others, = and like i said, many of us would prefer upgrades be on our terms, when = there is valid reason to upgrade or some VALID tool being added that = will benefit our workflow (not being able to tilt some faux 3d box for = example)

basically a lot of us who have been = with apple or adobe since the beginning (i still remember $1500 single = adobe fonts - probably not many do) are just over the "geek" phase where = we need to (more typically, feel the need to) have the latest and = greatest of everything just to get a job done. my PS 1.0 box is still = sitting on my shelf... always kept it for = nostalgia.

think if every year they came out = with some new nail that now you have to go purchase a new hammer for, or = all your tools etc... nobody would accept that... but likewise it is = pretty darn crazy how software developers do that or get away with = selling incomplete or buggy software that they then give you the option = of paying a large upgrade fee to get a version of the tool you = originally purchased (but may not have worked = properly)

the old joke about cars, would you = buy a car that just stopped in the middle of the road and needed to be = restarted for no reason? or if you can't use the trunk, turn signals and = one left back door until you pay for the car 2.0 upgrade? (which won't = be available for another 9 months and may in fact break some other = currently working parts of your car)

basically = software is becoming just another commodity, even the geeks with the = race to own the latest and greatest iphone so you can wave it around the = bar and feel "complete" in your life are starting to wane... most "kids" = nowadays are used to just having their software for free anyway now, i = wonder if adobe; once the cloud is implemented will start selling ad = space in the tool bar somewhere - since that is where most of this Y = generation is providing income for these new apps that are given away = for free (and the users pretty much expect them to be = free)

wonder how the new "pay wall" attempts = for these old school news outlets will turn out - everyone is used to = their news being free... essentially a pay wall around a news outlet web = site is not much different then a cloud subscription - you want in, you = pay. or everyone just goes en masse and finds something else to fill the = need.

probably the biggest attempt by the whole = cloud move is to monetize the warez people - which i would bet is huge = and a substantial red number on adobes income sheet. once you have to = "phone home" and it most likely records your IP, probably NIC and other = personal info - it wont' be as easy as those sharing sites with a serial = number you can type in and use the apps with for as long as you need. = (though a great way to seed the base out there and make your tools = industry standards that everyone if familiar = with)

but i hold out faith that moves like this = will just spawn a new breed of app, just like back when AE 1.0 first = came out from that tiny little developer team - it wasn't a massive = software developer that gave birth to it - after all... adobe and it's = massive size has not created from scratch any hits like those - the huge = corporate culture really seems against that... no different then = microsoft and adobe now primarily PURCHASE any new apps then re-brand = them - it's not being "born" in house. just like disney now purchases or = farms out most of it's creative (or purchases pixar) to get the content = they need to sell to keep that massive payroll = paid.

looking forward to seeing cloud evolve = but mostly looking forward to seeing what evolves = next.

dann

Dann = Stubbs  -  dann@darkskydigital.com
<= div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Dark Sky Digital -  http://www.darkskydigital.com<= /div>

http://www.RenderKing.com &nb= sp;Value Priced C4D, VRAY Render Farm



On May 11, 2013, at 2:03 PM, Steve Oakley wrote:

I'm not sure what problems you = are referring to. I've done 10.6->10.7->10.8 on the same drive = doing normal update installs across 4 machines. all has been fine. = rarely does an OS update ever hurt anything and more often than not = fixes things. that said, in case no one noticed, apple has removed web = sharing from 10.8 system prefs. all the bits are still there, but = requires manual config to start up and run.... or buy X server for 29.99 = or so. 

S

On May 11, = 2013, at 2:01 AM, adam mercado <adam@influxx.com> = wrote:

You misunderstood. I was = not blaming third party software. It was clearly the OS that caused the = ills. I was merely expressing my reluctance to upgrade ANYTHING anymore = unless its critical to do so. I got my production machine behaving and = have left it in that state for several = years.


"Upgrading to Snow Leopard caused so many problems for me, = nothing worked."

Why risk a production machine for an unnecessary = (mostly Mac) OS update, and then blame 3rd-party = software?

Nothing personal if I'm being insufferable, I've been = burned in a variety of ways by updates that zigged without concern for = others.

And skipping back a bit, sure there are some concerns = with CC (http://img.ly/uGvQ), but = there's nothing new with inevitable problems opening files far between = versions. =

Rich



<= /div>




=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95= =95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=
John = Montgomery =                   =      
co-founder = of fxguide.com | fxphd.com
twitter: = johnmontfx

= --Apple-Mail=_06D7BDD0-3562-4A91-92D4-DA7B5FC0BD5F--