Return-Path: Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com ([209.85.220.52] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5100714 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 14:09:52 +0200 Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id kq13so1372940pab.39 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 05:19:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=JyimYqHLaHR0Nbl+cq+1XrqfhclGM+LT6vFTxQPSc0U=; b=gTT1PGGr4DuhqEa+0cqeC2+4Q9Gf0/ODf/2IuIgTBRtKCjy/Ytc3FNE08FmMwVYFzj 7GBNE8xfKTnyGucLM7V7cCoSegIt9SPLebExp4AbRq9Fg8QNS6RFO2+uzA4kTEhqA9Zj lw0QLaFHMG8EvFpztWcXG/Z0jTlNSufhdwrhQbY+UxWa2XIzTsfmcfMJ6NKSA0xLdLIx VbSYQwaw08BHhfJWYMB4cSRirOS2oNwrtHquBWisZRLXovfcRCYkuYobTxuuYbxCRFlm 0wzERrhr9uv1+2m5r0TUMTVa/RSGgHAx0rKi5SiTnqxKc8DGzV+qevJ1+jxx5mDoNn01 UgKA== X-Received: by 10.66.102.97 with SMTP id fn1mr13822711pab.116.1370866781379; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 05:19:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.122.165 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 05:19:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Kjettrup Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 14:19:21 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Format that can be exported directly from AE that would be acceptable for a TV station to work with? To: After Effects Mail List , Anders Sundstedt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd90c6c89f1ae04decbcb3b X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlXssPrLaq75o358TPIVdzEdVDe9UBbu6kI1C8+nFZlZtDctdfCAa+dUoWuUYuu/swV9vij --047d7bd90c6c89f1ae04decbcb3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Anders About putting an rendered 24fps sequence into a 25fps comp and retime the already final frames can be problematic on some type of footage. If you want to do a highquality motioncompensated retiming of the footage you will see weird distortion of some overlapping motion, especially the "flying" layers that you use a lot in you animation that moves out of or into the frame, will probably make weird distortion. Here ReVision Twixtor will do a better job than the builtin AE effect. But maybe you can also try with just frameblending and see how it affects your animations, or just try to see how annoying the 24fps straight converted to 25fps will look. maybe it will be ok with your style of animation. Do some tests and make a desicion on that. What i suggested with putting the original 24fps comps into a 25fps comp, was what you don't wanted to hear. Yes, re-render the original AE animation, that is the only really good way to do it, but might also, as you say, be too much work, and something maybe the target audience wont notice anyway :-(. Again, make some tests. If you want to have your animations broadcast both in NTSC and PAL countries, i think that it is safer to do what you have done until now, and continue animating in 24fps, since a 24fps converts good to 30fps with some interlacing field doubling (some other US based users might have a better understanding and better description on what to do here), and 25fps have the same problems converting to 24 or 30fps as 24fps has to 25fps. Only if your mainly works for PAL countries i would suggest to work in 25fps. Heres a list of what countries has PAL, SECAM (also 25fps) or NTSC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg - Robert 2013/6/10 Anders Sundstedt > Thanks everyone! I think I now have enough information on what file > formats are generally acceptable. > > To clarify, I am from Sweden but I have lived in the UK since 2004 (thus > my portfolio website is still .se (server in US but I have now registered= . > co.uk so name server points to .se) as I have not wanted to move server > and loose any link juice). > I have not worked on making animations for a certain country, only world > wide (web), (so far mainly UK and US clients). > > To clarify, in my case I have been using True HDTV 1080p resolution > 1920x1080 (2.1 megapixel) output and 24 fps. I think this is also knows a= s > 1080p24m, as it=92s supported for both internet and Blu-Ray and many othe= r > distribution services. > (Since Blu-ray Discs allows encoding of 1080p23.976 and 1080p24 I also > thought that made even more sense). > > The reason I have chosen HDTV 1080 24 (this is one of the comp presets in > After Effects) is mainly that I chose the format to create 2D animated > films, not for broadcast. I wanted to use the frame rate for traditional > animated film and also one that can be played back on consumer displays > for Full HD, let=92s say for presentations on conferences and trade shows= , > since =93Full HD=94 is supposed to support 1080p24. > > (The videos were all created specifically for 1080p HD for the web, so I > went with the traditional frame rate for animated film (not TV)). So > specifically for Vimeo or YouTube embedding. > > I have chosen to only work in HDTV format, not worrying about SD output > (DV etc.) If client would have wanted a video for broadcast, I would > perhaps have used another frame rate. > > I don=92t think that I should have worked in pal 25fps, as my short films > were designed for the web, not for any specific country broadcast standar= d. > > When I read about 1080p online (wikipedia) it says that the original ATSC > standards for HDTV in the united states supported 1080p video at frame > rates of 23.976, 24,25 and 29.97. So that included 1080p24. > > Due to all of my above reasons, that=92s why I have so for not considered > working in 25fps. > > I understand as you have mentioned, that I could play back in 25fps and > compensate the audio mix, the problem with that that the music track woul= d > no longer match? plus that there would be too much work to remix the audi= o, > VO and all sound effects again, especially if versions would have to be > made for different broadcast standards. > > Robert, the 2nd alternative of putting original 24fps animation comps in = a > 25fps comp, could I just take the finished rendered =93master=94 24 fps t= arga > sequence, put that in a 25fps comp, or would I have to re-render all the > different scenes using the original comps? (as I have been pre-rendering > each of let=92s for example say 15 scenes in a project in 24 fps and then > editing them together in my final comp, where I=92ve applied some various > filters and mixed the sound / vo / sfx, it could otherwise take far too > long and be messy to have to actually re-render every single scene projec= t > on their own in 25 fps comps first. (because they can be complex scenes > with really long render times). If that is the case then I think I would > go for option 1, even though re-mixing the audio would also be a lot of > extra work. > > If only all countries could agree on one system for their digital TV > > At least now, I have some alternative file formats to use, and as you guy= s > have mentioned, each station may have different preferred format anyway. > > Let=92s put it this way then, forget about all the videos I have done so > far, they were all designed for web 1080p24 anyway so they don=92t need > re-doing > > Can you convince me I should be using another frame rate than 24fps going > forward, for my next projects? I would want to use a format for my short > animated films that would be best format when not knowing beforehand what > countries it may be broadcast in? (at the moment I would only really be > needing format that would need versions mainly for Europe and US). I gues= s > if I go with 25 fps as mentioned, it should feel pretty similar to 24 fps > animation and it=92s at least ready for European digital TV... (so that s= eems > to make most sense)? > > Kind Regards, > > Anders > > P.S. I am looking for work so if anyone needs help with animated 2D/2.5D > =93explainer=94 type animated video or marketing video, I can do both > directing, animation and illustration (everything). > > http://sundstedt.co.uk > (or sundstedt.se) > > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to > --047d7bd90c6c89f1ae04decbcb3b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Anders

About putting an render= ed 24fps sequence into a 25fps comp and retime the already final frames can= be problematic on some type of footage. If you want to do a highquality mo= tioncompensated retiming of the footage you will see weird distortion of so= me overlapping motion, especially the "flying" layers that you us= e a lot in you animation that moves out of or into the frame, will probably= make weird distortion. Here ReVision Twixtor will do a better job than the= builtin AE effect. But maybe you can also try with just frameblending and = see how it affects your animations, or just try to see how annoying the 24f= ps straight converted to 25fps will look. maybe it will be ok with your sty= le of animation. Do some tests and make a desicion on that.

What i suggested with putting the original = 24fps comps into a 25fps comp, was what you don't wanted to hear. Yes, = re-render the original AE animation, that is the only really good way to do= it, but might also, as you say, be too much work, and something maybe the = target audience wont notice anyway :-(. Again, make some tests.

If you want to have your animations broadcast bot= h in NTSC and PAL countries, i think that it is safer to do what you have d= one until now, and continue animating in 24fps, since a 24fps converts good= to 30fps with some interlacing field doubling (some other US based users m= ight have a better understanding and better description on what to do here)= , and 25fps have the same problems converting to 24 or 30fps as 24fps has t= o 25fps.

Only if your mainly works for PAL countries= i would suggest to work in 25fps.=A0
Heres a list of what = countries has PAL, SECAM (also 25fps) or NTSC:


=
- Robert


2013/6/10 Anders Sundstedt <sundstedt@hotmail.com><= /span>
Thanks everyone! I think I now have enough information on = what file formats are generally acceptable.

To clarify, I am from Sweden but I have lived in the UK since 2004 (thus my= portfolio website is still .se (server in US but I have now registered .co.uk so name server points to= .se) as I have not wanted to move server and loose any link juice).
I have not worked on making animations for a certain country, only world wi= de (web), (so far mainly UK and US clients).

To clarify, in my case I have been using True HDTV 1080p resolution 1920x10= 80 (2.1 megapixel) output and 24 fps. I think this is also knows as 1080p24= m, as it=92s supported for both internet and Blu-Ray and many other distrib= ution services.
(Since Blu-ray Discs allows encoding of 1080p23.976 and 1080p24 I also thou= ght that made even more sense).

The reason I have chosen HDTV 1080 24 (this is one of the comp presets in A= fter Effects) is mainly that I chose the format to create 2D animated films= , not for broadcast. I wanted to use the frame rate for traditional animate= d film and also one that can be played =A0back on consumer displays for Ful= l HD, let=92s say for presentations on conferences and trade shows, since = =93Full HD=94 is supposed to support 1080p24.

(The videos were all created specifically for 1080p HD for the web, so I we= nt with the traditional frame rate for animated film (not TV)). So specific= ally for Vimeo or YouTube embedding.

I have chosen to only work in HDTV format, not worrying about SD output (DV= etc.) If client would have wanted a video for broadcast, I would perhaps h= ave used another frame rate.

I don=92t think that I should have worked in pal 25fps, as my short films w= ere designed for the web, not for any specific country broadcast standard.<= br>
When I read about 1080p online (wikipedia) it says that the original ATSC s= tandards for HDTV in the united states supported 1080p video at frame rates= of 23.976, 24,25 and 29.97. So that included 1080p24.

Due to all of my above reasons, that=92s why I have so for not considered w= orking in 25fps.

I understand as you have mentioned, that I could play back in 25fps and com= pensate the audio mix, the problem with that that the music track would no = longer match? plus that there would be too much work to remix the audio, VO= and all sound effects again, especially if versions would have to be made = for different broadcast standards.

Robert, the 2nd alternative of putting original 24fps animation comps in a = 25fps comp, could I just take the finished rendered =93master=94 24 fps tar= ga sequence, put that in a 25fps comp, or would I have to re-render all the= different scenes using the original comps? (as I have been pre-rendering e= ach of let=92s for example say 15 scenes in a project in 24 fps and then ed= iting them together in my final comp, where I=92ve applied some various fil= ters and mixed the sound / vo / sfx, it could otherwise take far too long a= nd be messy to have to actually re-render every single scene project on the= ir own in 25 fps comps first. (because they can be complex scenes with real= ly long render times). =A0If that is the case then I think I would go for o= ption 1, even though re-mixing the audio would also be a lot of extra work.=

If only all countries could agree on one system for their digital TV

At least now, I have some alternative file formats to use, and as you guys = have mentioned, each station may have different preferred format anyway.
Let=92s put it this way then, forget about all the videos I have done so fa= r, they were all designed for web 1080p24 anyway so they don=92t need re-do= ing

Can you convince me I should be using another frame rate than 24fps going f= orward, for my next projects? I would want to use a format for my short ani= mated films that would be best format when not knowing beforehand what coun= tries it may be broadcast in? (at the moment I would only really be needing= format that would need versions mainly for Europe and US). I guess if I go= with 25 fps as mentioned, it should feel pretty similar to 24 fps animatio= n and it=92s at least ready for European digital TV... (so that seems to ma= ke most sense)?

Kind Regards,

Anders

P.S. I am looking for work so if anyone needs help with animated 2D/2.5D = =93explainer=94 type animated video or marketing video, I can do both direc= ting, animation and illustration (everything).

http://sundstedt.co.uk=
(or sundstedt.se)

+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>

--047d7bd90c6c89f1ae04decbcb3b--