Return-Path: Received: from atl4mhob08.myregisteredsite.com ([209.17.115.46] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 5163933 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 21:19:52 +0200 Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.207]) by atl4mhob08.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r71JVMAN013095 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:31:22 -0400 Received: (qmail 7908 invoked by uid 0); 1 Aug 2013 19:31:22 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 76.169.86.67 X-Authenticated-UID: torno@sydefxink.com Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.16?) (torno@sydefxink.com@76.169.86.67) by 0 with ESMTPA; 1 Aug 2013 19:31:22 -0000 Subject: Re: [AE] ASC_SOP & ASC_SAT values References: From: David Torno Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EA6AF2DC-D8E8-4A1B-9E37-A88DFD98AAE0 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10B329) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8CB5A8CF-C441-48F1-8D57-CD9EB9E0DFBD@sydefxink.com> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 12:31:19 -0700 To: After Effects Mail List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-EA6AF2DC-D8E8-4A1B-9E37-A88DFD98AAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the info Erik. They shot on the Sony F65. > Those values listed in your example are the default CDL values - no look. I= f that is all the CDL info that is present in the Avid BIN, then the CDL dat= a was not implemented in the dailies process correctly. I'd believe that. They are getting very close to the finger pointing phase o= f the conversation. :) David Torno Visual Effects Artist & Supervisor http://www.ghosttownmedia.com O: 213.739.2290 C: 818.391.6060 --------------------- http://www.sydefxink.com http://aeioweyou.blogspot.com http://mactex.blogspot.com "The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh" -Charles Field On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Erik Hansen wrote: > This is the standard and the way that is supposed to work. What may be hap= pening is that there may also be a LUT involved, especially if shooting on a= n Alexa - the ARRI LogC-to-Rec709 transform. >=20 > Normally, you should be applying the LUT and CDL information for review ma= terials only, finished shots should not have either baked-in. >=20 > The ARRI Look system, is actually based on this - LogC-to-Rec709 transform= , followed by CDL values (possibly Printer Lights too). >=20 > Those values listed in your example are the default CDL values - no look. I= f that is all the CDL info that is present in the Avid BIN, then the CDL dat= a was not implemented in the dailies process correctly. >=20 > If the DP created CDL values, I would contact them. If perhaps they create= d ARRI Look files, you can load them into ARRI's LUT creator and export LUTs= if you like. OCIO can also take CDL values and burn generic LUTs. >=20 > A .CDL file is just an XML document of the values in your example. >=20 > Erik >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:21 PM, David Torno wrote:= >> Thanks very much Bob for that thorough explanation. I love detailed orien= ted people. They seem to be rare in this industry. :) >>=20 >> > Or use Color Finesse within AE which can read ASC CDLs directly, so you= 'd just need to invert the values in the .cdl file, then load it in. >> If they can get me actual .cdl files that would be great, but I'm not hol= ding my breath. Right now, the editor is exporting the CDL data as part of h= is EDL and nothing more. The dailies had CDL metadata applied by a guy who i= s no longer on the production and the producers opted to not pay $2500 for a= ctual LUT files. Starting to question my career choices. :) >>=20 >> > With all that said, is the CDL really your "viewing LUT" or is it repre= sentation of the color correction that's been done, which is the normal use f= or a CDL? >>=20 >> So far from what little info I have managed to procure from the productio= n, the DP designed 4-6 CDL's I think. Day and night exterior, day and night i= nterior. I may be wrong on that though. What I think is happening (total gue= ss on this) is that the CDL's were applied to the dailies, which went to edi= t. Color got raw footage and had the LUT data but won't export without payme= nt. So we in VFX land are getting 10bit DPX in raw color without the CDL inf= o and edit has no clue as to why it's all not WYSIWYG, but I can't say reall= y. >>=20 >>=20 >> David Torno >> Visual Effects Artist & Supervisor >> http://www.ghosttownmedia.com >> O: 213.739.2290 >> C: 818.391.6060 >> --------------------- >> http://www.sydefxink.com >> http://aeioweyou.blogspot.com >> http://mactex.blogspot.com >>=20 >> "The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh" >> -Charles Field >>=20 >> On Jul 31, 2013, at 7:44 PM, "Bob Currier" wr= ote: >>=20 >> > "SOP" is "Slope, Offset, Power" in ASC CDL speak. We chose different na= mes because many people calculate lift/gamma/gain in different ways. >> > >> > Slope is gain (multiplication). Offset is lift (addition). Power is gam= ma (y^(1/x)). Saturation is saturation. >> > >> > To reverse it, enter the reciprocal of slope as your "gain." Enter the r= eciprocal of power as "gamma." And enter the negative of offset as "lift." E= nter saturation as the reciprocal of the CDL value. >> > >> > The gain setting should work regardless of the color correction app. Th= e gamma value, however, may need to be entered as a reciprocal. The lift val= ue is the hardest to deal with. Many apps adjust gain along with the lift se= tting, while the ASC CDL is a pure offset. >> > >> > Or use Color Finesse within AE which can read ASC CDLs directly, so you= 'd just need to invert the values in the .cdl file, then load it in. >> > >> > With all that said, is the CDL really your "viewing LUT" or is it repre= sentation of the color correction that's been done, which is the normal use f= or a CDL? >> > >> > ----- >> > Bob Currier rcurrier@synthetic-ap.com >> > Synthetic Aperture www.synthetic-ap.com >> > Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best >> > >> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 6:41 PM, David Torno wrote: >> > >> >> Curious question to anyone who has done a lot of CDL (Color Descision >> >> List) work. I'm use to using a generic Cineon Log to Lin for viewing a= nd >> >> then doing a reverse process with Cineon Lin to Log for final output. >> >> Not once have I ever gotten a proper LUT on a project in the 13+ years= >> >> I've been doing this work. Sad, very sad. Anyways, someone finally has= >> >> some CDL values (not an actual LUT file mind you) and I can easily, >> >> manually, input the values into Colorista - Free, but how would I do a= >> >> reverse of this properly? I'm assuming this CDL is essentially my >> >> "viewing" LUT and I would need it's opposite to reverse it all back wi= th >> >> VFX applied. Did that make sense? Thanks for any insight. >> >> >> >> What the editor exported for me, is an EDL that contained these lines a= s >> >> well as other clip data. >> >> >> >> *ASC_SOP (1.0000 1.0000 1.0000)(0.0000 0.0000 0.0000)(1.0000 1.0000 1.= 0000) >> >> *ASC_SAT 1 >> >> >> >> >> >> The ASC_SOP and ASC_SAT data exists, even though they are default >> >> neutral values. I'm hopeful that he will be able to get the actual CDL= >> >> values that he is seeing in AVID. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> David Torno >> >> Visual Effects Artist and Supervisor >> >> http://www.ghosttownmedia.com >> >> david@ghosttownmedia.com >> >> O: 213.739.2290 >> >> C: 818.391.6060 >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> http://www.sydefxink.com (main portfolio) >> >> http://aeioweyou.blogspot.com (vfx tutorials and AE scripts blog) >> >> http://mactex.blogspot.com (free textures blog) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> +---End of message---+ >> >> To unsubscribe send any message to >> > >> > >> > >> > +---End of message---+ >> > To unsubscribe send any message to >> > >>=20 >> +---End of message---+ >> To unsubscribe send any message to >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Erik Hansen > 323-316-3731 > eahansen@gmail.com / error1k@me.com > twitter @error1k > error1k.tumblr.com --Apple-Mail-EA6AF2DC-D8E8-4A1B-9E37-A88DFD98AAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the info Erik. They shot on= the Sony F65.

Those values listed in your example are the d= efault CDL values - no look. If that is all the CDL info that is present in t= he Avid BIN, then the CDL data was not implemented in the dailies process co= rrectly.
I'd believe that. They are getting very close to t= he finger pointing phase of the conversation. :)

David Torno
Visual Effects Artist & Supervisor
O: 213.739.2290
C= : 818.391.6060
----------= -----------
htt= p://aeioweyou.blogspot.com

This is the standard a= nd the way that is supposed to work. What may be happening is that there may= also be a LUT involved, especially if shooting on an Alexa - the ARRI LogC-= to-Rec709 transform.

Normally, you should be applying the LUT and CDL information for review= materials only, finished shots should not have either baked-in.
<= br>
The ARRI Look system, is actually based on this - LogC-to-Rec7= 09 transform, followed by CDL values (possibly Printer Lights too).

Those values listed in your example are the default CDL v= alues - no look. If that is all the CDL info that is present in the Avid BIN= , then the CDL data was not implemented in the dailies process correctly.

If the DP created CDL values, I would contact them. If p= erhaps they created ARRI Look files, you can load them into ARRI's LUT creat= or and export LUTs if you like. OCIO can also take CDL values and burn gener= ic LUTs.

A .CDL file is just an XML document of the values in you= r example.

Erik


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Davi= d Torno <torno@sydefxink.com> wrote:
Thanks very much Bob for that thorough explana= tion. I love detailed oriented people. They seem to be rare in this industry= . :)

> Or use Color Finesse within AE which can read ASC CDLs directly, so you= 'd just need to invert the values in the .cdl file, then load it in.
If they can get me actual .cdl files that would be great, but I'm not h= olding my breath. Right now, the editor is exporting the CDL data as part of= his EDL and nothing more. The dailies had CDL metadata applied by a guy who= is no longer on the production and the producers opted to not pay $2500 for= actual LUT files. Starting to question my career choices. :)

> With all that said, is the CDL really your "viewing LUT" or is it repre= sentation of the color correction that's been done, which is the normal use f= or a CDL?

So far from what little info I have managed to procure from the produc= tion, the DP designed 4-6 CDL's I think. Day and night exterior, day and nig= ht interior. I may be wrong on that though. What I think is happening (total= guess on this) is that the CDL's were applied to the dailies, which went to= edit. Color got raw footage and had the LUT data but won't export without p= ayment. So we in VFX land are getting 10bit DPX in raw color without the CDL= info and edit has no clue as to why it's all not WYSIWYG, but I can't say r= eally.


David Torno
Visual Effects Artist & Supervisor
http://www.ghost= townmedia.com
O: 213.739.2290
C: 818.391.6060
---------------------
http://www.sydefxink.= com
http://aeioweyou= .blogspot.com
http://mactex.blogs= pot.com

"The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh"
-Charles Field

On Jul 31, 2013, at 7:44 PM, "Bob Currier" <rcurrier@synthetic-ap.com> wrote:

> "SOP" is "Slope, Offset, Power" in ASC CDL speak. We chose different na= mes because many people calculate lift/gamma/gain in different ways.
>
> Slope is gain (multiplication). Offset is lift (addition). Power is gam= ma (y^(1/x)). Saturation is saturation.
>
> To reverse it, enter the reciprocal of slope as your "gain." Enter the r= eciprocal of power as "gamma." And enter the negative of offset as "lift." E= nter saturation as the reciprocal of the CDL value.
>
> The gain setting should work regardless of the color correction app. Th= e gamma value, however, may need to be entered as a reciprocal. The lift val= ue is the hardest to deal with. Many apps adjust gain along with the lift se= tting, while the ASC CDL is a pure offset.
>
> Or use Color Finesse within AE which can read ASC CDLs directly, so you= 'd just need to invert the values in the .cdl file, then load it in.
>
> With all that said, is the CDL really your "viewing LUT" or is it repre= sentation of the color correction that's been done, which is the normal use f= or a CDL?
>
> -----
> Bob Currier                 &nb= sp;                rcurrier@synthetic-ap.com
> Synthetic Aperture               &nb= sp;           www.synthetic-ap.com
> Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 6:41 PM, David Torno <torno@sydefxink.com> wrote:
>
>> Curious question to anyone who has done a lot of CDL (Color Descisi= on
>> List) work. I'm use to using a generic Cineon Log to Lin for viewin= g and
>> then doing a reverse process with Cineon Lin to Log for final outpu= t.
>> Not once have I ever gotten a proper LUT on a project in the 13+ ye= ars
>> I've been doing this work. Sad, very sad. Anyways, someone finally h= as
>> some CDL values (not an actual LUT file mind you) and I can easily,=
>> manually, input the values into Colorista - Free, but how would I d= o a
>> reverse of this properly? I'm assuming this CDL is essentially my >> "viewing" LUT and I would need it's opposite to reverse it all back= with
>> VFX applied. Did that make sense? Thanks for any insight.
>>
>> What the editor exported for me, is an EDL that contained these lin= es as
>> well as other clip data.
>>
>> *ASC_SOP (1.0000 1.0000 1.0000)(0.0000 0.0000 0.0000)(1.0000 1.0000= 1.0000)
>> *ASC_SAT 1
>>
>>
>> The ASC_SOP and ASC_SAT data exists, even though they are default >> neutral values. I'm hopeful that he will be able to get the actual C= DL
>> values that he is seeing in AVID.
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Torno
>> Visual Effects Artist and Supervisor
>> http://= www.ghosttownmedia.com
>> david@ghosttownmedia.co= m
>> O: 213.739.2290=
>> C: 818.391.6060=
>> ------------------------------------------------
>> http://www.s= ydefxink.com  (main portfolio)
>> http://= aeioweyou.blogspot.com (vfx tutorials and AE scripts blog)
>> http://mac= tex.blogspot.com  (free textures blog)
>>
>>
>>
>> +---End of message---+
>> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>
>
>
>
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>
>

+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>



--
E= rik Hansen
323-316-3731
eahansen@gmail.com / error1k@me.com
twitter @error1k
= error1k.tumblr.com
= --Apple-Mail-EA6AF2DC-D8E8-4A1B-9E37-A88DFD98AAE0--