Return-Path: Received: from mail-ie0-f180.google.com ([209.85.223.180] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5180344 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 21:18:04 +0200 Received: by mail-ie0-f180.google.com with SMTP id x13so250876ief.11 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=jrRB2kPRaEYroco11WFCJDId4gYcAKY67IFwuTjQyyM=; b=pLQ4TzNY7ivp2W0Nu1ngUQytLGEAyGYFsPNUXDW6kOIqpw1Cu2Vsv6M1Ppk5mytRm9 gp/ZppKoMLEoqK1pdh23QKvXml7umNZSyGvOJNKT2Ckq4aAnU8NOHmejHuZt9YUJ9Jtk uoy/cgZgGZwJzTFmBG3ekNpju5ZPNcHxO+QoMFXexsoPZNerGYa7CjiAg+K4NxC1X2B7 hPy92rNAXnf3ssMM60fEJ11fLKkGXug+bAwDg+Ew+5ZJENSOVfbIslD9Lz2eGiiINlao v5U50jLvXKKJcqt7njVBypatj07cjGO9nvgTKeiVCSA1ucBLuPYWFjxFj/NddF5lBr4G lsTQ== X-Received: by 10.42.52.129 with SMTP id j1mr3442943icg.5.1376940607869; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:30:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.168.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:29:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Mr. Eric D. Kirk" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 15:29:47 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Adobe Premiere To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba614dbecf1b9704e451f7f9 --90e6ba614dbecf1b9704e451f7f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is all very good information and appreciate you taking the time to provide. I will get back to the DNxHD and see if they notice. I understand what you mean on that conversion to ProRes on a PC. I found that when using that little GUI (the one outside of AE) - what is it, cineport or something? Anyway, for large files it would hang and I also noted that it seemed to drop frames from the beginning and end. However, using the GUI within AE, where it converts it right there, that thing has been remarkably reliable. Knock on wood. Eric On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > Eric I often deal with this exact workflow. While we could fill an > encyclopedia discussing codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly wha= t > has worked for me in the past. Additionally, there seems to be this > obsession with "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you need > to maintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float > video, there is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" format, > considering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY options th= at > will preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, and work in > realtime while still saving storage space. > > - As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, has no > gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compression in > near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can be > compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 gb > clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. > This is my main workflow. > > - If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through prores on > my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the money = to > invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more hours > getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you can > then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would > additionally be a tax writeoff > > - The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:4 codec > for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's great > > - further suggestions, especially if audio is not really an issue: Image > sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg sequence is great > for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is another great low > bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. For CG and FX > work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of information and > metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file > > furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec option > with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excited > about. > > Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even better, CUDA > supported. My only request... > > whew. Hope that helps somebody. > > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < > kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Teddy, >> >> Yes, I know they are old. So, what is the recommendation then to >> maintain best quality? In the projects I've been getting, I'm receiving >> ProRes files, adding VFX and sending back. I've been rendering that >> Quicktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin for AE >> that someone I believe mentioned on here a while back. I'm trying to >> ensure they get back a copy as clean as was received. >> >> What do you recommend? >> >> Appreciate it. >> >> Eric >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy Gage wrote= : >> >>> you do know those codecs are like ten years old? That is definitely >>> what's slowing you down. They require massive disk IO bandwidth and >>> storage. Even image sequences would play back faster at equal quality a= nd >>> smaller size >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I do normally use the avi uncompressed yuv 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects >>>> and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for others that I then conver= t to >>>> Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it is. lol I have the DNXH= D one >>>> - first time I've heard anyone refer to it is the Windows version of >>>> Pro-Res. Good to know. >>>> >>>> I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(LT) 422 bu= t >>>> the guy didn't seem to like it. I actually found it by searching the = most >>>> comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6-8 months ago= . >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Teddy Gage wrote= : >>>> >>>>> what codec are you working in? how big are your files (ie are they >>>>> huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to Avid DNxHD, you can >>>>> download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/CS apps. it i= s the >>>>> pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime on your syst= em. it >>>>> works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit rate bottlene= ck, or >>>>> sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of Premiere is you = dont >>>>> have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you may have a dif= ferent >>>>> working codec set for the sequence than your footage, or your footage= is in >>>>> an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime performance fro= m >>>>> external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 connection or >>>>> better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from / to = your >>>>> media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you down. = just >>>>> some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I'd be= happy >>>>> to help. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. Some good pointers in there. I never thought that using th= e >>>>>> same drive as your installations would have an impact. That said, I= rarely >>>>>> do that and try to use all separate drives for projects that way if = the >>>>>> boot drive crashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, it jus= t makes >>>>>> for a week long effort to rebuild. lol >>>>>> >>>>>> I will have to check out the speed test and verify cache location. >>>>>> >>>>>> My first thought however was that there was just some procedure, >>>>>> similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere for sure. :) lol N= ow >>>>>> Vegas, which I really have loved for years did seem to have that lag= as far >>>>>> back is like 2005 or so when I began using it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Eric >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27 PM, David Baud wr= ote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From my point of view it is not controversial :-) =85we sometime ha= ve >>>>>>> a tendancy to put the blame quickly on a piece of software when the= problem >>>>>>> might be with our own system configuration=85 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? >>>>>>> uncompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are lookin= g for >>>>>>> realtime and consistency=85 but first I will make sure that your me= dia is >>>>>>> located on a different hard drive than your system/application driv= es=85 >>>>>>> ideally the fastest hard drive on your system=85 as well as your ca= che >>>>>>> folder=85. you may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or a= ny other >>>>>>> program to test the throughput you get with your hard drives=85 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HTH, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Baud >>>>>>> K O S M O S P R O D U C T i O N S >>>>>>> david@kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>> www.kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm using an avi file, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a >>>>>>> combination of internal SATA drives and externals, however this pro= ject is >>>>>>> on an internal. I have a radeon 6900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. Sy= stem has >>>>>>> an I7, 36GB RAM. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>>>>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>>>>> *443.206.1347 >>>>>> www.kirkproductions.com >>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>>>>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>>>>> * * >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Animator & Editor >>>>> www.teddygage.com >>>>> Brooklyn >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>>> *443.206.1347 >>>> www.kirkproductions.com >>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>>> * * >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Animator & Editor >>> www.teddygage.com >>> Brooklyn >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >> *443.206.1347 >> www.kirkproductions.com >> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >> * * >> > > > > -- > Animator & Editor > www.teddygage.com > Brooklyn > --=20 *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* *The Night Visitor | VFX* *443.206.1347 www.kirkproductions.com kirkproductions@gmail.com* *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* * * --90e6ba614dbecf1b9704e451f7f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is all very good information and appreciate you = taking the time to provide.=A0 I will get back to the DNxHD and see if they= notice.=A0 I understand what you mean on that conversion to ProRes on a PC= .
=A0
I found that when using that little GUI (the one outside= of AE) - what is it, cineport or something?=A0 Anyway, for large files it = would hang and I also noted that it seemed to drop frames from the beginnin= g and end.
=A0
However, using the GUI within AE, where it converts it r= ight there, that thing has been remarkably reliable.=A0 Knock on wood.
=A0
Eric


On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Eric I often deal with this exact= workflow. While we could fill an encyclopedia discussing codecs and format= s, but I'll tell you exactly what has worked for me in the past. Additi= onally, there seems to be this obsession with "lossless" and in m= y practical experience, unless you need to maintain the full dynamic range = of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float video, there is no practical value to en= coding to a "lossless" format, considering bandwidth and storage = requirements. There are MANY options that will preserve a video with 99% in= tegrity, edit flawlessly, and work in realtime while still saving storage s= pace.

- As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, = has no gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compressio= n in near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can= be compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 g= b clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. = This is my main workflow.

- If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through pr= ores on my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the = money to invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more ho= urs getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you c= an then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would addit= ionally be a tax writeoff

- The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:= 4 codec for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's = great

- further suggestions, especially if audio is not really= an issue: Image sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg seq= uence is great for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is anot= her great low bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. F= or CG and FX work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of informat= ion and metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file

furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec opti= on with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excite= d about.

Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even = better, CUDA supported. My only request...

whew. Hope that helps somebody.

=


On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirk= productions@gmail.com> wrote:
Teddy,
=A0
Yes, = I know they are old.=A0 So, what is the recommendation then to maintain bes= t quality?=A0 In the projects I've been getting, I'm receiving ProR= es files, adding VFX and sending back.=A0 I've been rendering that Quic= ktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin for AE that s= omeone I believe mentioned on here a while back.=A0 I'm trying to ensur= e they get back a copy as clean as was received.
=A0
What do you recommend?
=A0
Appreciat= e it.
=A0
Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy = Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote:
you do know those codecs are like ten yea= rs old? That is definitely what's slowing you down. They require massiv= e disk IO bandwidth and storage. Even image sequences would play back faste= r at equal quality and smaller size


On Sun,= Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@gma= il.com> wrote:
I do normally use the avi uncompressed yu= v 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for = others that I then convert to Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it= is. lol =A0I have the DNXHD one - first time I've heard anyone refer t= o it is the Windows version of Pro-Res. =A0Good to know.=A0

I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(= LT) 422 but the guy didn't seem to like it. =A0I actually found it by s= earching the most comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6= -8 months ago.=A0

Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05= PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote:
what codec are you working in? how big ar= e your files (ie are they huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to A= vid DNxHD, you can download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/= CS apps. it is the pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime= on your system. it works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit= rate bottleneck, or sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of P= remiere is you dont have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you = may have a different working codec set for the sequence than your footage, = or your footage is in an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime= performance from external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 co= nnection or better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from= / to your media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you d= own. just some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I&= #39;d be happy to help.



On = Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Hi David,

Thanks. =A0S= ome good pointers in there. =A0I never thought that using the same drive as= your installations would have an impact. =A0That said, I rarely do that an= d try to use all separate drives for projects that way if the boot drive cr= ashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, it just makes for a we= ek long effort to rebuild. lol

I will have to check out the speed test and verify cach= e location.

My first thought however was that ther= e was just some procedure, similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere= for sure. :) lol =A0Now Vegas, which I really have loved for years did see= m to have that lag as far back is like 2005 or so when I began using it.

Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27= PM, David Baud <david.baud@gmail.com> wrote:
From my point of view = it is not controversial :-) =85we sometime have a tendancy to put the blame= quickly on a piece of software when the problem might be with our own syst= em configuration=85

When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? unc= ompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are looking for realt= ime and consistency=85 but first I will make sure that your media is locate= d on a different hard drive than your system/application drives=85 ideally = the fastest hard drive on your system=85 as well as your cache folder=85. y= ou may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or any other program to = test the throughput you get with your hard drives=85

HTH,

David Baud
K O S M O S =A0 =A0 P R O D U C T= i O N S
<= /div>
david@kosmos-productions.com
<= /span>
On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@= gmail.com> wrote:

I'm using an avi fi= le, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a combination of internal SATA drives = and externals, however this project is on an internal. =A0I have a radeon 6= 900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. =A0System has an I7, 36GB RAM.




<= /div>
--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visi= tor | VFX
=A0



--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com Brooklyn



--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | VFX
=A0
=


--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com<= /a>
Brooklyn



--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | VFX
=A0



--
Animator & Edit= or
w= ww.teddygage.com
Brooklyn



--
Eric D. Kirk |= =A0Kirk Productions
--90e6ba614dbecf1b9704e451f7f9--