Return-Path: Received: from na3sys009aog103.obsmtp.com ([74.125.149.71] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 5180347 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 21:19:44 +0200 Received: from mail-qc0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]) (using TLSv1) by na3sys009aob103.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUhJypapWq3msGnE3F8E/weLP6szQ+IwM@postini.com; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:31:51 PDT Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id m15so2756552qcq.28 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=totaltraining.com; s=google; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:organization:message-id :mime-version:content-type:thread-index:content-language; bh=PofJTjapSwnOyvykczpaXDNFp05LHJ/JUmL9zO80MbA=; b=Eg4BT9mtGFDymoJBUQo739z7AFkcIMUf9VzbdTxgpZpiqh+rueGlL/MaVXMGZc/wqo PHjT7yR31H9vHcCIielr27Tm/kdnPvfDUI7dHZZh9QDzykcbvdc4hTK4KwBaaDW7ciIe 6nFqDPLUsoOOqqLeSk0w/IhZfFZBzONEwGnvU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :organization:message-id:mime-version:content-type:thread-index :content-language; bh=PofJTjapSwnOyvykczpaXDNFp05LHJ/JUmL9zO80MbA=; b=AS8RJhLZXbJ3J88jbrG9HmGWinwqZnd6KI0j/19/k+OnODxNK6reWh5NT2hPYISNEl Rpqahv9i3R+SlBRwIH6nG3PxqdcWzdIMLHtTRDhCCjibWmNdIpsEtZUd82xDfxngeIUR vQtA6SH/lhnf3FRePANOXKH+QhkKRybqDaPB81aAkxjSF8gUbYAx71LxFlTdnu7B6cSb h45zezEvKt+kRx9j7zmay5/Sr/BIJEXGBR6ywPkv9Hj/gqoAvO+Nb4lag1lYEJNY3yWV DPdX6CuGhnKdFR8MhBHrZnSl2VZY5uD3uKY+OffV18Vmw5cyjTZKA7MO0TqmceVBYdxh 2I+A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm++NEjAvTgYPvf6oWJSDMOEfz+o6huR66KcuaXs5j69yh8o+NJD00//fK6qu+BTOOCjZq8YCFAhOkz5JZJ2IBhraZznuPP373zEZ+cqhVoyKqaNjswqRea6fAaij4hW7Qp9zN+xQD6nsg7uhbcIpRjTcKOCzj44mQo5wO4kvy54m8i0ic= X-Received: by 10.224.45.135 with SMTP id e7mr3276126qaf.108.1376940708459; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.224.45.135 with SMTP id e7mr3276107qaf.108.1376940708255; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from ProductionPC (pool-108-29-120-46.nycmny.fios.verizon.net. [108.29.120.46]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id r8sm426016qez.1.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian Maffitt" To: "'After Effects Mail List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [AE] Adobe Premiere Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 15:31:56 -0400 Organization: Total Training Message-ID: <051601ce9d12$c4aa4b70$4dfee250$@totaltraining.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0517_01CE9CF1.3D9B4380" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 thread-index: AQKrZJPlqRh7ok3wrMbyyqRXYf/g/ZfjXEYQ Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0517_01CE9CF1.3D9B4380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I could try re-compressing them, again. I've already done that a few times though. From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On Behalf Of Mr. Eric D. Kirk Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:30 PM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Adobe Premiere This is all very good information and appreciate you taking the time to provide. I will get back to the DNxHD and see if they notice. I understand what you mean on that conversion to ProRes on a PC. I found that when using that little GUI (the one outside of AE) - what is it, cineport or something? Anyway, for large files it would hang and I also noted that it seemed to drop frames from the beginning and end. However, using the GUI within AE, where it converts it right there, that thing has been remarkably reliable. Knock on wood. Eric On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage > wrote: Eric I often deal with this exact workflow. While we could fill an encyclopedia discussing codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly what has worked for me in the past. Additionally, there seems to be this obsession with "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you need to maintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float video, there is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" format, considering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY options that will preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, and work in realtime while still saving storage space. - As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, has no gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compression in near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can be compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 gb clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. This is my main workflow. - If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through prores on my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the money to invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more hours getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you can then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would additionally be a tax writeoff - The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:4 codec for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's great - further suggestions, especially if audio is not really an issue: Image sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg sequence is great for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is another great low bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. For CG and FX work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of information and metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec option with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excited about. Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even better, CUDA supported. My only request... whew. Hope that helps somebody. On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk > wrote: Teddy, Yes, I know they are old. So, what is the recommendation then to maintain best quality? In the projects I've been getting, I'm receiving ProRes files, adding VFX and sending back. I've been rendering that Quicktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin for AE that someone I believe mentioned on here a while back. I'm trying to ensure they get back a copy as clean as was received. What do you recommend? Appreciate it. Eric On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy Gage > wrote: you do know those codecs are like ten years old? That is definitely what's slowing you down. They require massive disk IO bandwidth and storage. Even image sequences would play back faster at equal quality and smaller size On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk > wrote: I do normally use the avi uncompressed yuv 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for others that I then convert to Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it is. lol I have the DNXHD one - first time I've heard anyone refer to it is the Windows version of Pro-Res. Good to know. I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(LT) 422 but the guy didn't seem to like it. I actually found it by searching the most comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6-8 months ago. Eric On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Teddy Gage > wrote: what codec are you working in? how big are your files (ie are they huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to Avid DNxHD, you can download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/CS apps. it is the pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime on your system. it works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit rate bottleneck, or sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of Premiere is you dont have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you may have a different working codec set for the sequence than your footage, or your footage is in an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime performance from external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 connection or better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from / to your media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you down. just some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I'd be happy to help. On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk > wrote: Hi David, Thanks. Some good pointers in there. I never thought that using the same drive as your installations would have an impact. That said, I rarely do that and try to use all separate drives for projects that way if the boot drive crashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, it just makes for a week long effort to rebuild. lol I will have to check out the speed test and verify cache location. My first thought however was that there was just some procedure, similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere for sure. :) lol Now Vegas, which I really have loved for years did seem to have that lag as far back is like 2005 or so when I began using it. Eric On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27 PM, David Baud > wrote: >From my point of view it is not controversial :-) .we sometime have a tendancy to put the blame quickly on a piece of software when the problem might be with our own system configuration. When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? uncompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are looking for realtime and consistency. but first I will make sure that your media is located on a different hard drive than your system/application drives. ideally the fastest hard drive on your system. as well as your cache folder.. you may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or any other program to test the throughput you get with your hard drives. HTH, David Baud K O S M O S P R O D U C T i O N S david@kosmos-productions.com www.kosmos-productions.com On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk > wrote: I'm using an avi file, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a combination of internal SATA drives and externals, however this project is on an internal. I have a radeon 6900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. System has an I7, 36GB RAM. -- Eric D. Kirk | Kirk Productions The Night Visitor | VFX 443.206.1347 www.kirkproductions.com kirkproductions@gmail.com IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/ -- Animator & Editor www.teddygage.com Brooklyn -- Eric D. Kirk | Kirk Productions The Night Visitor | VFX 443.206.1347 www.kirkproductions.com kirkproductions@gmail.com IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/ -- Animator & Editor www.teddygage.com Brooklyn -- Eric D. Kirk | Kirk Productions The Night Visitor | VFX 443.206.1347 www.kirkproductions.com kirkproductions@gmail.com IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/ -- Animator & Editor www.teddygage.com Brooklyn -- Eric D. Kirk | Kirk Productions The Night Visitor | VFX 443.206.1347 www.kirkproductions.com kirkproductions@gmail.com IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/ ------=_NextPart_000_0517_01CE9CF1.3D9B4380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I could try re-compressing them, again. I’ve already done that = a few times though.

 

From: After = Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] On Behalf Of = Mr. Eric D. Kirk
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:30 = PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] = Adobe Premiere

 

This is all very good information and appreciate you = taking the time to provide.  I will get back to the DNxHD and see = if they notice.  I understand what you mean on that conversion to = ProRes on a PC.

 

I = found that when using that little GUI (the one outside of AE) - what is = it, cineport or something?  Anyway, for large files it would hang = and I also noted that it seemed to drop frames from the beginning and = end.

 

However, using the GUI within AE, where it converts it = right there, that thing has been remarkably reliable.  Knock on = wood.

 

Eric

 

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> = wrote:

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Eric I often deal = with this exact workflow. While we could fill an encyclopedia discussing = codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly what has worked for me in = the past. Additionally, there seems to be this obsession with = "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you need to = maintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float = video, there is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" = format, considering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY = options that will preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, = and work in realtime while still saving storage = space.

- As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever = possible. It looks great, has no gamma issues or color shift in my = experience and has good compression in near-lossless format. This is = what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can be compressed further into a = zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 gb clip can be put into a = 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. This is my main = workflow.

- If a studio needs prores output I run = the DNxHD back through prores on my mac mini server / MBP. I would = highly recommend if you have the money to invest in a mini or laptop for = this purpose. I have wasted more hours getting prores output on Pc than = my time was worth. Additionally, you can then handle multiple projects = or be ready for curveballs. it would additionally be a tax = writeoff

- The DNX codec package includes a full = res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:4 codec for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in = it on movies, it's great

- further suggestions, especially if = audio is not really an issue: Image sequences. A tif sequence is = virtually lossless. A jpg sequence is great for high-quality low-storage = archival purposes. MJPG is another great low bandwidth high quality = codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. For CG and FX work I use OpenEXR = sequences, which can store TONS of information and metadata in multiple = sequence layers in a single file

furthermore Brendan Bolles is = working on an even better open codec option with all of these benefits = and more. Which I for one am extremely excited about.

Brendan - = Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even better, CUDA supported. = My only request...

whew. Hope = that helps somebody.

 

 

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk = <kirkproductions@gmail.com> = wrote:

Teddy,

 

Yes, I know they are old.  So, what is the = recommendation then to maintain best quality?  In the projects I've = been getting, I'm receiving ProRes files, adding VFX and sending = back.  I've been rendering that Quicktime, YUV, then converting to = ProRes with that little plugin for AE that someone I believe mentioned = on here a while back.  I'm trying to ensure they get back a copy as = clean as was received.

 

What do you recommend?

 

Appreciate it.

 

Eric

<= div>

 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> = wrote:

you = do know those codecs are like ten years old? That is definitely what's = slowing you down. They require massive disk IO bandwidth and storage. = Even image sequences would play back faster at equal quality and smaller = size

 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk = <kirkproductions@gmail.com> = wrote:

I do = normally use the avi uncompressed yuv 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects and = the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for others that I then convert to = Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it is. lol  I have the = DNXHD one - first time I've heard anyone refer to it is the Windows = version of Pro-Res.  Good to know. 

 

I = had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(LT) 422 but = the guy didn't seem to like it.  I actually found it by searching = the most comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6-8 = months ago. 

 

Eric

<= div>

 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> = wrote:

what codec are you working in? how big = are your files (ie are they huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding = to Avid DNxHD, you can download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with = all CC/CS apps. it is the pc equivalent of prores, and should playback = in realtime on your system. it works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like = a drive / bit rate bottleneck, or sequence settings mismatch to me. The = whole point of Premiere is you dont have to render (as much). if your = timeline is red, you may have a different working codec set for the = sequence than your footage, or your footage is in an inefficient format. = Also you will not get realtime performance from external / internal = drives unless you are using FW 800 connection or better. What does = windows report when you copy a huge file from / to your media drive? = Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you down. just some ideas. = if you have any technical questions about hardware I'd be happy to = help.

 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk = <kirkproductions@gmail.com> = wrote:

Hi = David,

 

Thanks.  Some good pointers in there.  I = never thought that using the same drive as your installations would have = an impact.  That said, I rarely do that and try to use all separate = drives for projects that way if the boot drive crashes, I don't lose my = important files. Instead, it just makes for a week long effort to = rebuild. lol

 

I = will have to check out the speed test and verify cache = location.

 

My first thought however was that there was just some = procedure, similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere for sure. :) = lol  Now Vegas, which I really have loved for years did seem to = have that lag as far back is like 2005 or so when I began using = it.

 

Eric

<= div>

 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27 PM, David Baud <david.baud@gmail.com> = wrote:

From = my point of view it is not controversial :-) …we sometime have a = tendancy to put the blame quickly on a piece of software when the = problem might be with our own system = configuration…

 

When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you = using? uncompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are = looking for realtime and consistency… but first I will make sure = that your media is located on a different hard drive than your = system/application drives… ideally the fastest hard drive on your = system… as well as your cache folder…. you may want to use = Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or any other program to test the = throughput you get with your hard = drives…

 

HTH,

 

David Baud

K O S M O S     P R O D U C T i O N = S

david@kosmos-productions.com

<= div>

On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk = <kirkproductions@gmail.com> = wrote:



I'm using an avi file, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage = is a combination of internal SATA drives and externals, however this = project is on an internal.  I have a radeon 6900 (I believe) with = 2GB RAM.  System has an I7, 36GB = RAM.

 



 

-- =

Eric D. Kirk | Kirk = Productions

The Night Visitor | = VFX

 




--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn

=



 

-- =

Eric D. Kirk | Kirk = Productions

The Night Visitor | = VFX

 




--
Animator & = Editor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn

=




-- =

Eric D. Kirk | Kirk = Productions

The Night Visitor | = VFX

 




-- =
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn




-- =

Eric D. Kirk | Kirk = Productions

The = Night Visitor | VFX

<= div>

IMDB:  http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/<= /p>

 

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