Return-Path: Received: from mail-ie0-f177.google.com ([209.85.223.177] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5187605 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 16:08:59 +0200 Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id e14so3296884iej.8 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=LblKGlwyuFnAMwK0hi6Rb4iOuhCkeWrRk4YNMHst6mQ=; b=pA11xyUZ1sAFr6ucgYgh10YSJEB1qkJR9RCUdTcEGU7FeW/xW6LQZ5dyfxAHfcXytv dL8gVf0XRA6g4bE/uwyh5TXfZ4bOZPvujgUX6+X73kqijRZzYH4mOhR1aVwkd/LQqlHK 4T5b4xEfv586nE+dhaw1WCKoTqxQZ47NtJhmVekIC7mU/5oNqDw88NUh9Wm+QY0ZyhKT 9Zoc52SDX2StgNqSvxPo/hVjGGaLlnzDDD+H0EPS2U3G/bP4jXlSU4d7ZaI+yu1A+gkN Wxon3Vd0FKQG/poh+WQCCENgKWuoStjdXQlEkFIx5rYWpsaI8OrzSbRrs3KZESmCWX9U UiiQ== X-Received: by 10.42.104.198 with SMTP id s6mr4851019ico.20.1377440475675; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.168.105 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 07:20:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Mr. Eric D. Kirk" Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 10:20:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Adobe Premiere To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303ddb3040897d04e4c65ad0 --20cf303ddb3040897d04e4c65ad0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Teddy, I've been using the DNxHD since our conversation last week and now realize there were some settings I had not adjusted in AE. It was defaulted to 59 fps for one and I'm working on a 29.97 project. Then second - a question. In the render settings it has a couple other settings I'd like your advice on. 1. For color, should I used the 709 or RGB? 2. Alpha settings have 3 choices: None, compressed, uncompressed. Which is best here? The only other option was the FPS and resolution size mentioned above. Thanks ahead. Eric On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > Eric I often deal with this exact workflow. While we could fill an > encyclopedia discussing codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly wha= t > has worked for me in the past. Additionally, there seems to be this > obsession with "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you need > to maintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float > video, there is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" format, > considering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY options th= at > will preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, and work in > realtime while still saving storage space. > > - As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, has no > gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compression in > near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can be > compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 gb > clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. > This is my main workflow. > > - If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through prores on > my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the money = to > invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more hours > getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you can > then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would > additionally be a tax writeoff > > - The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:4 codec > for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's great > > - further suggestions, especially if audio is not really an issue: Image > sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg sequence is great > for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is another great low > bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. For CG and FX > work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of information and > metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file > > furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec option > with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excited > about. > > Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even better, CUDA > supported. My only request... > > whew. Hope that helps somebody. > > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < > kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Teddy, >> >> Yes, I know they are old. So, what is the recommendation then to >> maintain best quality? In the projects I've been getting, I'm receiving >> ProRes files, adding VFX and sending back. I've been rendering that >> Quicktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin for AE >> that someone I believe mentioned on here a while back. I'm trying to >> ensure they get back a copy as clean as was received. >> >> What do you recommend? >> >> Appreciate it. >> >> Eric >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy Gage wrote= : >> >>> you do know those codecs are like ten years old? That is definitely >>> what's slowing you down. They require massive disk IO bandwidth and >>> storage. Even image sequences would play back faster at equal quality a= nd >>> smaller size >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I do normally use the avi uncompressed yuv 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects >>>> and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for others that I then conver= t to >>>> Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it is. lol I have the DNXH= D one >>>> - first time I've heard anyone refer to it is the Windows version of >>>> Pro-Res. Good to know. >>>> >>>> I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(LT) 422 bu= t >>>> the guy didn't seem to like it. I actually found it by searching the = most >>>> comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6-8 months ago= . >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Teddy Gage wrote= : >>>> >>>>> what codec are you working in? how big are your files (ie are they >>>>> huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to Avid DNxHD, you can >>>>> download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/CS apps. it i= s the >>>>> pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime on your syst= em. it >>>>> works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit rate bottlene= ck, or >>>>> sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of Premiere is you = dont >>>>> have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you may have a dif= ferent >>>>> working codec set for the sequence than your footage, or your footage= is in >>>>> an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime performance fro= m >>>>> external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 connection or >>>>> better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from / to = your >>>>> media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you down. = just >>>>> some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I'd be= happy >>>>> to help. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. Some good pointers in there. I never thought that using th= e >>>>>> same drive as your installations would have an impact. That said, I= rarely >>>>>> do that and try to use all separate drives for projects that way if = the >>>>>> boot drive crashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, it jus= t makes >>>>>> for a week long effort to rebuild. lol >>>>>> >>>>>> I will have to check out the speed test and verify cache location. >>>>>> >>>>>> My first thought however was that there was just some procedure, >>>>>> similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere for sure. :) lol N= ow >>>>>> Vegas, which I really have loved for years did seem to have that lag= as far >>>>>> back is like 2005 or so when I began using it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Eric >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27 PM, David Baud wr= ote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From my point of view it is not controversial :-) =85we sometime ha= ve >>>>>>> a tendancy to put the blame quickly on a piece of software when the= problem >>>>>>> might be with our own system configuration=85 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? >>>>>>> uncompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are lookin= g for >>>>>>> realtime and consistency=85 but first I will make sure that your me= dia is >>>>>>> located on a different hard drive than your system/application driv= es=85 >>>>>>> ideally the fastest hard drive on your system=85 as well as your ca= che >>>>>>> folder=85. you may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or a= ny other >>>>>>> program to test the throughput you get with your hard drives=85 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HTH, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Baud >>>>>>> K O S M O S P R O D U C T i O N S >>>>>>> david@kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>> www.kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm using an avi file, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a >>>>>>> combination of internal SATA drives and externals, however this pro= ject is >>>>>>> on an internal. I have a radeon 6900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. Sy= stem has >>>>>>> an I7, 36GB RAM. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>>>>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>>>>> *443.206.1347 >>>>>> www.kirkproductions.com >>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>>>>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>>>>> * * >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Animator & Editor >>>>> www.teddygage.com >>>>> Brooklyn >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>>> *443.206.1347 >>>> www.kirkproductions.com >>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>>> * * >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Animator & Editor >>> www.teddygage.com >>> Brooklyn >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >> *443.206.1347 >> www.kirkproductions.com >> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >> * * >> > > > > -- > Animator & Editor > www.teddygage.com > Brooklyn > --=20 *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* *The Night Visitor | VFX* *443.206.1347 www.kirkproductions.com kirkproductions@gmail.com* *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* * * --20cf303ddb3040897d04e4c65ad0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Teddy,

I've been using the DN= xHD since our conversation last week and now realize there were some settin= gs I had not adjusted in AE. =A0It was defaulted to 59 fps for one and I= 9;m working on a 29.97 project. =A0Then second - a question. =A0In the rend= er settings it has a couple other settings I'd like your advice on.

1. =A0For color, should I used the 709 or RGB?
2. =A0Alpha settings have 3 choices: None, compressed, uncompressed. =A0W= hich is best here?

The only other option was the F= PS and resolution size mentioned above.

Thanks ahead.

Eric
=


On Mon, Aug 1= 9, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote= :
Er= ic I often deal with this exact workflow. While we could fill an encycloped= ia discussing codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly what has wo= rked for me in the past. Additionally, there seems to be this obsession wit= h "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you need to m= aintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float video, th= ere is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" format, con= sidering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY options that wi= ll preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, and work in realti= me while still saving storage space.

- As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, = has no gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compressio= n in near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can= be compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 g= b clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. = This is my main workflow.

- If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through pr= ores on my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the = money to invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more ho= urs getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you c= an then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would addit= ionally be a tax writeoff

- The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:= 4 codec for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's = great

- further suggestions, especially if audio is not really= an issue: Image sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg seq= uence is great for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is anot= her great low bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. F= or CG and FX work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of informat= ion and metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file

furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec opti= on with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excite= d about.

Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even = better, CUDA supported. My only request...

whew. Hope that helps somebody.

=


On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirk= productions@gmail.com> wrote:
Teddy,
=A0
Yes, I know they are old.=A0 So, what is the recommendation then t= o maintain best quality?=A0 In the projects I've been getting, I'm = receiving ProRes files, adding VFX and sending back.=A0 I've been rende= ring that Quicktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin= for AE that someone I believe mentioned on here a while back.=A0 I'm t= rying to ensure they get back a copy as clean as was received.
=A0
What do you recommend?
=A0
Appreciat= e it.
=A0
Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy = Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote:
you do know those codecs ar= e like ten years old? That is definitely what's slowing you down. They = require massive disk IO bandwidth and storage. Even image sequences would p= lay back faster at equal quality and smaller size


On Sun,= Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@gma= il.com> wrote:
I do normally use the avi uncompressed yu= v 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for = others that I then convert to Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it= is. lol =A0I have the DNXHD one - first time I've heard anyone refer t= o it is the Windows version of Pro-Res. =A0Good to know.=A0

I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(= LT) 422 but the guy didn't seem to like it. =A0I actually found it by s= earching the most comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6= -8 months ago.=A0

Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05= PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote:
what codec are you working in? how big ar= e your files (ie are they huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to A= vid DNxHD, you can download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/= CS apps. it is the pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime= on your system. it works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit= rate bottleneck, or sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of P= remiere is you dont have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you = may have a different working codec set for the sequence than your footage, = or your footage is in an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime= performance from external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 co= nnection or better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from= / to your media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you d= own. just some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I&= #39;d be happy to help.



On = Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Hi David,

Thanks. =A0S= ome good pointers in there. =A0I never thought that using the same drive as= your installations would have an impact. =A0That said, I rarely do that an= d try to use all separate drives for projects that way if the boot drive cr= ashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, it just makes for a we= ek long effort to rebuild. lol

I will have to check out the speed test and verify cach= e location.

My first thought however was that ther= e was just some procedure, similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere= for sure. :) lol =A0Now Vegas, which I really have loved for years did see= m to have that lag as far back is like 2005 or so when I began using it.

Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27= PM, David Baud <david.baud@gmail.com> wrote:
From my point of view = it is not controversial :-) =85we sometime have a tendancy to put the blame= quickly on a piece of software when the problem might be with our own syst= em configuration=85

When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? unc= ompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are looking for realt= ime and consistency=85 but first I will make sure that your media is locate= d on a different hard drive than your system/application drives=85 ideally = the fastest hard drive on your system=85 as well as your cache folder=85. y= ou may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or any other program to = test the throughput you get with your hard drives=85

HTH,

David Baud
K O S M O S =A0 =A0 P R O D U C T= i O N S
<= /div>
david@kosmos-productions.com<= /span>
On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@= gmail.com> wrote:

I'm using an avi fi= le, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a combination of internal SATA drives = and externals, however this project is on an internal. =A0I have a radeon 6= 900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. =A0System has an I7, 36GB RAM.




<= /div>
--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visi= tor | VFX
=A0



--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com Brooklyn



--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | VFX
=A0
=


--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com<= /a>
Brooklyn



--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | VFX
=A0



--
Animator &= ; Editor
www.teddygage.com
Brooklyn



--
Eric= D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | V= FX
=A0
--20cf303ddb3040897d04e4c65ad0--