Return-Path: Received: from mail-vc0-f177.google.com ([209.85.220.177] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5187635 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 17:01:51 +0200 Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id gf12so1469409vcb.36 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 08:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=U3VHUs2HGVCASLcg95FFzGFCdEk/Pu3/Wbh+mWQifFE=; b=D3ga0O9IT/w0nQcPhp7vOsPHbOMmv9TG8kxuivJqGd3BpQ+dKDX3sINIz2cKFzsmte arpPc01BIjVyKakmYdzhPMz/nyV7DYihZfspeSZLuAT6tt7lZt/RWlTygLz2Tl1Mcyv2 YC3TnmG/zYRa0ShOL09Su+TtuPHTlMkicwUKCg1PC7+43htIvLmVOKPlYTJHY2RtIV/j J2DM8o6F3oziUvnpl9PO594jO0MTWLgP/ibYYLSxn2H2Q3GrkpzXhQGjZsmnqh8tD8XQ UYbkGzaq2BXkVWhFj4rIZLflQYrR0vK88MhcOrDA0s0Qpp78YG6JtPGrnFYnN8Kl7x2n MMeA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkidaIMrYW0V0NzBeDSZriMcrNcHqbEMz+Ib7MnSC6ZDSckui0a0NzqWJy2Sk3BLmbCTiVF MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.46.72 with SMTP id i8mr10273049vcf.10.1377443648316; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 08:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.59.4.37 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 08:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.59.4.37 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 08:14:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 17:14:08 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Adobe Premiere From: Robert Kjettrup To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c6745b3b3b04e4c717e5 --001a11c2c6745b3b3b04e4c717e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always set color to RGB since AE is RGB and most avid editors I know imports files coming from AE as RGB, so there is just less errors in our workflow doing that. I cant either see any difference when importing an QT DNxHD back into AE if it has been set to either RGB or 709. That might be either because AE detects the colorspace correctly on import or that there is a 'bug' in the QT DNxHD codec? For alpha I have always rendered as compressed and that has worked good up untill AE CC. But in the Creative Cloud apps with the new native DNxHD cant read files with compressed alpha, only uncompressed alpha is showing. Hopefully this is something that is addressed quickly in a new realease, because it has caused some confussion in some users here :-( You can write an compressed alpha with the QT DNxHD codec, it is only the reading of it that is unsupported in CC. And if you are delivereing to Avid MC remember to render as straight alpha or else you will have an edge halo in Avid. This is one of many areas where avid is very oldfasioned :-) -Robert Den 25/08/2013 16.21 skrev "Mr. Eric D. Kirk" : > Hello Teddy, > > I've been using the DNxHD since our conversation last week and now realiz= e > there were some settings I had not adjusted in AE. It was defaulted to 5= 9 > fps for one and I'm working on a 29.97 project. Then second - a question= . > In the render settings it has a couple other settings I'd like your advi= ce > on. > > 1. For color, should I used the 709 or RGB? > 2. Alpha settings have 3 choices: None, compressed, uncompressed. Which > is best here? > > The only other option was the FPS and resolution size mentioned above. > > Thanks ahead. > > Eric > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > >> Eric I often deal with this exact workflow. While we could fill an >> encyclopedia discussing codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly wh= at >> has worked for me in the past. Additionally, there seems to be this >> obsession with "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you nee= d >> to maintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float >> video, there is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" format, >> considering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY options t= hat >> will preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, and work in >> realtime while still saving storage space. >> >> - As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, has no >> gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compression in >> near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can b= e >> compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 gb >> clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. >> This is my main workflow. >> >> - If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through prores on >> my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the money= to >> invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more hours >> getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you ca= n >> then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would >> additionally be a tax writeoff >> >> - The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:4 codec >> for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's great >> >> - further suggestions, especially if audio is not really an issue: Image >> sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg sequence is great >> for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is another great lo= w >> bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. For CG and F= X >> work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of information and >> metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file >> >> furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec optio= n >> with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excite= d >> about. >> >> Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even better, CUDA >> supported. My only request... >> >> whew. Hope that helps somebody. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Teddy, >>> >>> Yes, I know they are old. So, what is the recommendation then to >>> maintain best quality? In the projects I've been getting, I'm receivin= g >>> ProRes files, adding VFX and sending back. I've been rendering that >>> Quicktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin for A= E >>> that someone I believe mentioned on here a while back. I'm trying to >>> ensure they get back a copy as clean as was received. >>> >>> What do you recommend? >>> >>> Appreciate it. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy Gage wrote= : >>> >>>> you do know those codecs are like ten years old? That is definitely >>>> what's slowing you down. They require massive disk IO bandwidth and >>>> storage. Even image sequences would play back faster at equal quality = and >>>> smaller size >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I do normally use the avi uncompressed yuv 4:2:2 CODEC for my project= s >>>>> and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for others that I then conve= rt to >>>>> Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it is. lol I have the DNX= HD one >>>>> - first time I've heard anyone refer to it is the Windows version of >>>>> Pro-Res. Good to know. >>>>> >>>>> I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(LT) 422 >>>>> but the guy didn't seem to like it. I actually found it by searching= the >>>>> most comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6-8 mont= hs >>>>> ago. >>>>> >>>>> Eric >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Teddy Gage wrot= e: >>>>> >>>>>> what codec are you working in? how big are your files (ie are they >>>>>> huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to Avid DNxHD, you can >>>>>> download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/CS apps. it = is the >>>>>> pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime on your sys= tem. it >>>>>> works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit rate bottlen= eck, or >>>>>> sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of Premiere is you= dont >>>>>> have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you may have a di= fferent >>>>>> working codec set for the sequence than your footage, or your footag= e is in >>>>>> an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime performance fr= om >>>>>> external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 connection or >>>>>> better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from / to= your >>>>>> media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you down.= just >>>>>> some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I'd b= e happy >>>>>> to help. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. Some good pointers in there. I never thought that using >>>>>>> the same drive as your installations would have an impact. That sa= id, I >>>>>>> rarely do that and try to use all separate drives for projects that= way if >>>>>>> the boot drive crashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, i= t just >>>>>>> makes for a week long effort to rebuild. lol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will have to check out the speed test and verify cache location. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My first thought however was that there was just some procedure, >>>>>>> similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere for sure. :) lol = Now >>>>>>> Vegas, which I really have loved for years did seem to have that la= g as far >>>>>>> back is like 2005 or so when I began using it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27 PM, David Baud w= rote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From my point of view it is not controversial :-) =85we sometime h= ave >>>>>>>> a tendancy to put the blame quickly on a piece of software when th= e problem >>>>>>>> might be with our own system configuration=85 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? >>>>>>>> uncompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are looki= ng for >>>>>>>> realtime and consistency=85 but first I will make sure that your m= edia is >>>>>>>> located on a different hard drive than your system/application dri= ves=85 >>>>>>>> ideally the fastest hard drive on your system=85 as well as your c= ache >>>>>>>> folder=85. you may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or = any other >>>>>>>> program to test the throughput you get with your hard drives=85 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> HTH, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Baud >>>>>>>> K O S M O S P R O D U C T i O N S >>>>>>>> david@kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>>> www.kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk < >>>>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm using an avi file, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a >>>>>>>> combination of internal SATA drives and externals, however this pr= oject is >>>>>>>> on an internal. I have a radeon 6900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. S= ystem has >>>>>>>> an I7, 36GB RAM. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>>>>>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>>>>>> *443.206.1347 >>>>>>> www.kirkproductions.com >>>>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>>>>>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>>>>>> * * >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Animator & Editor >>>>>> www.teddygage.com >>>>>> Brooklyn >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>>>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>>>> *443.206.1347 >>>>> www.kirkproductions.com >>>>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>>>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>>>> * * >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Animator & Editor >>>> www.teddygage.com >>>> Brooklyn >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >>> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >>> *443.206.1347 >>> www.kirkproductions.com >>> kirkproductions@gmail.com* >>> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* >>> * * >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Animator & Editor >> www.teddygage.com >> Brooklyn >> > > > > -- > *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* > *The Night Visitor | VFX* > *443.206.1347 > www.kirkproductions.com > kirkproductions@gmail.com* > *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/* > * * > --001a11c2c6745b3b3b04e4c717e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I always set color to RGB since AE is RGB and most avid edit= ors I know imports files coming from AE as RGB, so there is just less error= s in our workflow doing that.
I cant either see any difference when importing an QT DNxHD back into AE if= it has been set to either RGB or 709. That might be either because AE dete= cts the colorspace correctly on import or that there is a 'bug' in = the QT DNxHD codec?

For alpha I have always rendered as compressed and that has = worked good up untill AE CC. But in the Creative Cloud apps with the new na= tive DNxHD cant read files with compressed alpha, only uncompressed alpha i= s showing.
Hopefully this is something that is addressed quickly in a new realease, be= cause it has caused some confussion in some users here :-(
You can write an compressed alpha with the QT DNxHD codec, it is only the r= eading of it that is unsupported in CC.

And if you are delivereing to Avid MC remember to render as = straight alpha or else you will have an edge halo in Avid. This is one of m= any areas where avid is very oldfasioned :-)

-Robert

Den 25/08/2013 16.21 skrev "Mr. Eric D. Kir= k" <kirkproductions@gm= ail.com>:
Hello Teddy,

I've been using the DN= xHD since our conversation last week and now realize there were some settin= gs I had not adjusted in AE. =A0It was defaulted to 59 fps for one and I= 9;m working on a 29.97 project. =A0Then second - a question. =A0In the rend= er settings it has a couple other settings I'd like your advice on.

1. =A0For color, should I used the 709 or RGB?
2. =A0Alpha settings have 3 choices: None, compressed, uncompressed. =A0W= hich is best here?

The only other option was the F= PS and resolution size mentioned above.

Thanks ahead.

Eric
=


On Mon, Aug 1= 9, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote= :
Er= ic I often deal with this exact workflow. While we could fill an encycloped= ia discussing codecs and formats, but I'll tell you exactly what has wo= rked for me in the past. Additionally, there seems to be this obsession wit= h "lossless" and in my practical experience, unless you need to m= aintain the full dynamic range of 4:4:4:4 log-c 32bit color float video, th= ere is no practical value to encoding to a "lossless" format, con= sidering bandwidth and storage requirements. There are MANY options that wi= ll preserve a video with 99% integrity, edit flawlessly, and work in realti= me while still saving storage space.

- As I mentioned, I use DNxHD whenever possible. It looks great, = has no gamma issues or color shift in my experience and has good compressio= n in near-lossless format. This is what we use at MTV. Additionally, it can= be compressed further into a zip file at nearly 3:1 ratio, meaning a 1.5 g= b clip can be put into a 500mb zip file with zero quality loss for upload. = This is my main workflow.

- If a studio needs prores output I run the DNxHD back through pr= ores on my mac mini server / MBP. I would highly recommend if you have the = money to invest in a mini or laptop for this purpose. I have wasted more ho= urs getting prores output on Pc than my time was worth. Additionally, you c= an then handle multiple projects or be ready for curveballs. it would addit= ionally be a tax writeoff

- The DNX codec package includes a full res, lossless Avid 4:4:4:= 4 codec for 32bit / log footage. I've worked in it on movies, it's = great

- further suggestions, especially if audio is not really= an issue: Image sequences. A tif sequence is virtually lossless. A jpg seq= uence is great for high-quality low-storage archival purposes. MJPG is anot= her great low bandwidth high quality codec for storage in an .mov / .avi. F= or CG and FX work I use OpenEXR sequences, which can store TONS of informat= ion and metadata in multiple sequence layers in a single file

furthermore Brendan Bolles is working on an even better open codec opti= on with all of these benefits and more. Which I for one am extremely excite= d about.

Brendan - Please make encoding it multi-threaded, or even = better, CUDA supported. My only request...

whew. Hope that helps somebody.

=


On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirk= productions@gmail.com> wrote:
Teddy,
=A0
Yes, I know they are old.=A0 So, what is the recommendation then t= o maintain best quality?=A0 In the projects I've been getting, I'm = receiving ProRes files, adding VFX and sending back.=A0 I've been rende= ring that Quicktime, YUV, then converting to ProRes with that little plugin= for AE that someone I believe mentioned on here a while back.=A0 I'm t= rying to ensure they get back a copy as clean as was received.
=A0
What do you recommend?
=A0
Appreciat= e it.
=A0
Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Teddy = Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote:
you do know those codecs ar= e like ten years old? That is definitely what's slowing you down. They = require massive disk IO bandwidth and storage. Even image sequences would p= lay back faster at equal quality and smaller size


On Sun,= Aug 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@gma= il.com> wrote:
I do normally use the avi uncompressed yu= v 4:2:2 CODEC for my projects and the Quicktime Uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 for = others that I then convert to Pro-Res using that cinec thing or whatever it= is. lol =A0I have the DNXHD one - first time I've heard anyone refer t= o it is the Windows version of Pro-Res. =A0Good to know.=A0

I had attempted using that before as a comparison to ProRes(= LT) 422 but the guy didn't seem to like it. =A0I actually found it by s= earching the most comparable to ProRes so I suppose I was on to something 6= -8 months ago.=A0

Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:05= PM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com> wrote:
what codec are you working in? how big ar= e your files (ie are they huge raw uncompressed AVIs?) try re-encoding to A= vid DNxHD, you can download from Avid the LE codec pack. works with all CC/= CS apps. it is the pc equivalent of prores, and should playback in realtime= on your system. it works in either .mov or .avi. Sounds like a drive / bit= rate bottleneck, or sequence settings mismatch to me. The whole point of P= remiere is you dont have to render (as much). if your timeline is red, you = may have a different working codec set for the sequence than your footage, = or your footage is in an inefficient format. Also you will not get realtime= performance from external / internal drives unless you are using FW 800 co= nnection or better. What does windows report when you copy a huge file from= / to your media drive? Anything under 60 MB/s is going to be slowing you d= own. just some ideas. if you have any technical questions about hardware I&= #39;d be happy to help.



On = Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Hi David,

Thanks. =A0S= ome good pointers in there. =A0I never thought that using the same drive as= your installations would have an impact. =A0That said, I rarely do that an= d try to use all separate drives for projects that way if the boot drive cr= ashes, I don't lose my important files. Instead, it just makes for a we= ek long effort to rebuild. lol

I will have to check out the speed test and verify cach= e location.

My first thought however was that ther= e was just some procedure, similar to RAM preview so I was blaming Premiere= for sure. :) lol =A0Now Vegas, which I really have loved for years did see= m to have that lag as far back is like 2005 or so when I began using it.

Eric


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 8:27= PM, David Baud <david.baud@gmail.com> wrote:
From my point of view = it is not controversial :-) =85we sometime have a tendancy to put the blame= quickly on a piece of software when the problem might be with our own syst= em configuration=85

When you say AVI file, what kind of codec are you using? unc= ompressed? you may have to create a RAID array if you are looking for realt= ime and consistency=85 but first I will make sure that your media is locate= d on a different hard drive than your system/application drives=85 ideally = the fastest hard drive on your system=85 as well as your cache folder=85. y= ou may want to use Disk Speed Test from Blackmagic or any other program to = test the throughput you get with your hard drives=85

HTH,

David Baud
K O S M O S =A0 =A0 P R O D U C T= i O N S
<= /div>
david@kosmos-productions.com<= /span>
On Aug 18, 2013, at 18:08 , Mr. Eric D. Kirk <kirkproductions@= gmail.com> wrote:

I'm using an avi fi= le, 29.97fps, no RAID. My storage is a combination of internal SATA drives = and externals, however this project is on an internal. =A0I have a radeon 6= 900 (I believe) with 2GB RAM. =A0System has an I7, 36GB RAM.




<= /div>
--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visi= tor | VFX
=A0



--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com Brooklyn



--
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | VFX
=A0
=


--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com<= /a>
Brooklyn



= --
Eric D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
Th= e Night Visitor | VFX
=A0
=


--
Animator & Editor
www.teddygage.com<= /a>
Brooklyn



--
Eric= D. Kirk |=A0Kirk Productions
The Night Visitor | V= FX
=A0
--001a11c2c6745b3b3b04e4c717e5--