Return-Path: Received: from [64.29.147.237] (HELO mail24c25-2209.carrierzone.com) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5326092 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 02:34:01 +0100 X-Authenticated-User: albion.speakeasy.net Received: from [192.168.1.125] (c-67-185-28-214.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [67.185.28.214]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail24c25-2209.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id rBM1b1bd000865 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 01:37:02 +0000 From: James Culbertson Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D93ABDF-6315-4425-8C77-C5985040BEB2" Subject: Re: [AE] (OT) New Mac Pro - Who's getting it? Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 17:36:32 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: After Effects Mail List References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.1 cv=aKDJ99Nm c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=Y/MgaaCAW/y6DJCnCmasCA==:117 a=Y/MgaaCAW/y6DJCnCmasCA==:17 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=g0qM3YM6AAAA:8 a=sj8xHyxJ8GQA:10 a=A8LQOh1NFgIA:10 a=eVbW6KzvAAAA:8 a=tVlM9X-CyKQA:10 a=76MnKq--AAAA:8 a=CNQR0VI_AAAA:8 a=JcsG6Z0FjCY5lnJAHZkA:9 a=aisdDQmHNzpwg_I0:21 a=ccv-kqaB6z86hsqg:21 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=SeXka_JQ__gA:10 a=_5XVCEB0b_IA:10 a=pw3nKJmNvNoYbBMj:21 a=SuZQa8WP_tuo5imo:21 a=LTUtxSCvQ4-QqEw_:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=ZolQrPbMFWUA:10 a=LQ4BVPkz7qgA:10 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020204.52B6423F.0018,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 --Apple-Mail=_9D93ABDF-6315-4425-8C77-C5985040BEB2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Teddy, I don't know whether you are correct or not more generally, but I = am curious to know what D700/W9000 GPU card equivalent you are using to = get that price. And does that price account for a single or dual GPU = setup? Thanks, James On Dec 21, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > James, you can do whatever you want, but don't misrepresent the = facts. A custom PC with similar render numbers on many benchmarks than = your new mac pro will actually run you closer to $1,200-1,500. You could = literally buy three hex-core computers for the price of that single mac = pro. In terms of render power, that's a far cry from "a couple hundred = dollars" difference. Yes the Pro has many bespoke custom parts. But they = are more or less matched to 90% by regular high end PC components. For = example nobody "needs" ECC RAM at 200% markup or Xeon-class chips at = 300% markup. Regular DDR4 RAM and i7 chips are just as good, if not = faster, in many cases.=20 >=20 > You don't have to build it yourself, and you don't have to buy it = from Dell or HP, who also charge a hefty markup closer to Apple's, which = is where a lot of these inaccurate numbers are coming from. There are = tons of mid-level workstation builders out there with great reliability = and good warranties. Your justification is fine, I'm not here to tell = you how to spend your money. But your comparison is simply not accurate = if you understand computer hardware and benchmarks.=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 5:10 PM, James Culbertson = wrote: > I'm looking at buying a 6 core base processor, 512GB SSD, 32GB RAM, = and dual D700s (and AppleCare) for about $5500 + tax. Thunderbolt = peripherals extra of course. >=20 > =46rom what I can see an equivalent cost workstation PC isn't all that = different. Building one yourself is cheaper I assume but that's still = not really worth the time based on my hourly/daily rate. >=20 > Then there is the cost of equivalent GPUs on the PC side. As I = understand it a D700 is pretty equivalent to a W9000 at over $3000/GPU. = But even the D300 is a pretty good deal. Someone correct me if I am = wrong here. >=20 > In any case, if there is a couple of hundred dollar premium (GPUs = aside) for having what I personally consider a superior system (knowing = full well that what each of us considers a superior system varies = immensely) and I can pay for it on average with about 2 weeks of work... = well, what's the debate really about? >=20 > James >=20 >=20 > On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:11 PM, S=F8ren Christensen wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> I was trying to configure a HP Z workstation and a Boxx workstation = with the same specs (cpu, gfx card etc)as the new mac pro. >> They ticked in between 38-51% more expensive than a new mac pro. With = normal sata6 ssdnand with smaller category gfx cards (And off course = pcie slots). >> With one gfx card they where still expensiverl... >> I find it quite odd that people are ranting about how expensive the = mac is maxed out when pc counterparts cost the same or a lot more for = the same configuration. >>=20 >> In my case the mac pro comes as a blessing and the form factor is = very welcome. I do a lot of live visuals and virtual scenography where = gpu performance and multiple (more than 3) outputs is a must. And super = fast ssd speeds to handle xx amounts of realtime hd video layers a = necessity. This small wine-cooler-look-a-like design (Bodum, anyone?) = fits in the hand luggage. Touring with mac pros has become fun again :-) >>=20 >> Looking forward to see some real world cpu and gpu tests. What has = been clear for a long time is that gpu power is the new 'black'. Lets = hope that the all-in bet on opencl pays off. >>=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >> S=F8ren >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> >>=20 >>=20 >> |||| DESILENCE STUDIO >> |||| www.dslnc.com - motion & interactivity >> |||| +34 93 268 0953 / +34 61 555 9963 (mobile) >>=20 >> |||| SOCIAL >> |||| twitter.dslnc.com facebook.dslnc.com >>=20 >> |||| SHOWREEL 2013 >> |||| v5.dslnc.com/reel/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 20 Dec 2013, at 20:20, dennis@reelsolutions.com wrote: >>=20 >>>> You say "Not interested in starting any mac vs. pc debate..." Then=20= >>>> "I imagine they are mainly for rich nerds to show off?" ... Ok... >>>=20 >>> Count me in as a rich nerd I guess - I'll be buying one. I've never = regretted buying a Mac, when I've gotten a bad one (1 in 16+years, = they've been great at correcting the problem). >>>=20 >>> I've made a couple PC purchases I'd rather not go into...=20 >>>=20 >>> Why make an assumption how long it will take to get repaired? I had = a MacPro way out of warranty that had a power supply go bad; I guess = they didn't have the part because they gave me a brand new base model = MacPro for no charge at all, they didn't even charge for the diagnostic = fee. (And they let me pay the difference to upgrade it to the fastest = MacPro). What a waste of money! >>> This was for a 4+ yr old machine, they weren't obligated to do = anything. Time to receive the new machine was about a week ( mainly = because I requested a non-stocked configuration). >>>=20 >>> HP wants $3,749 for the 12 core Xeon chip, they're not cheap. >>>=20 >>> 800.00 to upgrade from a 256GB SSD isn't bad considering it will do = 1200 MB/s. To match that speed, you can't really replicate it easily = (RAID adds latency). >>>=20 >>> mho... Dennis Wilkins >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > _____________________________ > VFX & Motion Graphic Artist > teddygage dot com --Apple-Mail=_9D93ABDF-6315-4425-8C77-C5985040BEB2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
     James, you can do = whatever you want, but don't misrepresent the facts. A custom PC with = similar render numbers on many benchmarks than your new mac pro will = actually run you closer to $1,200-1,500. You could literally buy three = hex-core computers for the price of that single mac pro. In terms of = render power, that's a far cry from "a couple hundred dollars" = difference. Yes the Pro has many bespoke custom parts. But they are = more or less matched to 90% by regular high end PC components. For = example nobody "needs" ECC RAM at 200% markup or Xeon-class chips at = 300% markup. Regular DDR4 RAM and i7 chips are just as good, if not = faster, in many cases. 

     You don't have to build it yourself, = and you don't have to buy it from Dell or HP, who also charge a hefty = markup closer to Apple's, which is where a lot of these inaccurate = numbers are coming from. There are tons of mid-level workstation = builders out there with great reliability and good warranties. Your = justification is fine, I'm not here to tell you how to spend your money. = But your comparison is simply not accurate if you understand computer = hardware and benchmarks. 


On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 5:10 PM, James Culbertson = <albion@speakeasy.net> wrote:
I'm looking at = buying a 6 core base = processor, 512GB SSD, 32GB RAM, and dual = D700s (and AppleCare) for about $5500 + tax. Thunderbolt peripherals = extra of course.
=

=46rom what I can see an equivalent cost workstation PC isn't all = that different. Building one yourself is cheaper I assume but that's = still not really worth the time based on my hourly/daily = rate.
=

Then there is the cost of equivalent GPUs on the PC side. As I = understand it a D700 is pretty equivalent to a W9000 at over $3000/GPU. = But even the D300 is a pretty good deal. Someone correct me if I am = wrong here.
=

In any case, if there is a couple of hundred dollar premium (GPUs = aside) for having what I personally consider a superior system (knowing = full well that what each of us considers a superior system varies = immensely) and I can pay for it on average with about 2 weeks of work... = well, what's the debate really about?
=

James


On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:11 = PM, S=F8ren Christensen wrote:


I = was trying to configure a HP Z workstation and a Boxx workstation with = the same specs (cpu, gfx card etc)as the new mac pro.
They ticked in between 38-51% more expensive than a new mac pro. = With normal sata6 ssdnand  with smaller category gfx cards (And off = course pcie slots).
With one gfx card they where still = expensiverl...
I find it quite odd that people are ranting about = how expensive the mac is maxed out when pc counterparts cost the same or = a lot more for the same configuration.

In my case the mac pro comes as a blessing and the form factor is = very welcome. I do a lot of live visuals and virtual scenography where = gpu performance and multiple (more than 3) outputs is a must. And super = fast ssd speeds to handle xx amounts of realtime hd video layers a = necessity. This small wine-cooler-look-a-like  design (Bodum, = anyone?) fits in the hand luggage. Touring with mac pros has become fun = again :-)

Looking forward to see some real world cpu and gpu = tests. What has been clear for a long time is that gpu power is the new = 'black'. Lets hope that the all-in bet on opencl pays off.

=

Cheers,
S=F8ren






<dslnc_email2_black.png>


|||| DESILENCE STUDIO
||||  www.dslnc.com - motion & = interactivity
||||  +34 93 268 0953  /  +34 61 555 9963 (mobile)

|||| SOCIAL
|||| twitter.dslnc.com  facebook.dslnc.com

|||| SHOWREEL = 2013
=


On 20 Dec 2013, at 20:20, dennis@reelsolutions.com = wrote:

You say "Not interested = in starting any mac vs. pc debate..." Then 
"I imagine they are = mainly for rich nerds to show off?" ... Ok...

Count me in as a rich nerd I guess - I'll be = buying one. I've never regretted buying a Mac, when I've gotten a bad = one (1 in 16+years, they've been great at correcting the problem).

I've made a couple PC purchases I'd rather not go = into... 

Why make an assumption how long = it will take to get repaired? I had a MacPro way out of warranty that = had a power supply go bad; I guess they didn't have the part because = they gave me a brand new base model MacPro for no charge at all, they = didn't even charge for the diagnostic fee. (And they let me pay the = difference to upgrade it to the fastest MacPro). What a waste of = money!
This was for a 4+ yr old machine, they weren't obligated to do = anything. Time to receive the new machine was about a week ( mainly = because I requested a non-stocked = configuration).

HP wants $3,749 for the 12 core = Xeon chip, they're not cheap.

800.00 to upgrade from a 256GB SSD isn't bad = considering it will do 1200 MB/s. To match that speed, you can't really = replicate it easily (RAID adds latency).

mho... = Dennis Wilkins
=





--
_____________________________
VFX & Motion Graphic Artist
teddygage dot com

= --Apple-Mail=_9D93ABDF-6315-4425-8C77-C5985040BEB2--