Return-Path: Received: from mail-qe0-f50.google.com ([209.85.128.50] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5329605 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 03:44:49 +0100 Received: by mail-qe0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 1so8587672qec.37 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:48:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=d44iXOmB5iDYYcG02oQ3pD5DxExMGr4jv8uUIDVtomA=; b=JXtO603pEqYtCaKFS5UmDhN7MmenbdjVJ3pZTXuQhGN6vUw0XESTUE0ayc5hoztEph IRFQ4SKufAPuo+vr0vpzjRV4qJQNyDZtMRkHZrMD5LJYfP+XIaHQ/IFqU3qADwZLXq0a UAhMC2+PAhIr+r57mWSLMBuQTBlVJcQQRmxz96xDo9RpR7yIC1dTA7lBI7aZG6n0kQob 8h+n4k3GtWoew0qAsK367wvZnPMPNx/PgFhhs1GftH2qy12v4o9AhedP7z57M4Hldakk /5aZRWFMGf8b3Ql6NSfjejf2j3Ee2QK4Egw0DFRtq0h00miRP8UAsMM4f+ZU8UoGd43J Al6g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.35.112 with SMTP id g16mr78107692qej.13.1388112481244; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.216.132 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:48:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 21:48:01 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] (OT) New Mac Pro - Who's getting it? From: Teddy Gage To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b676f7c5a6d7f04ee7b1fa9 --047d7b676f7c5a6d7f04ee7b1fa9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Eloquent and apt. Everything is hearsay until we see real world benchmarks. Steven I'd love to hear about your build in a new thread. Is there any chip that has come out on the consumer side that can challenge the hex-core 3930K in price :: performance yet? What are you going with for graphics? On Thursday, December 26, 2013, Stephen van Vuuren wrote: > > Here's an interesting article on the value proposition of the new Mac > Pro. Turns out it's tough to build a comparable machine for the price. - > > Unfortunately, that's a lazy and poorly researched article. The new Mac > Pro is an intriguing mystery of parts. > > I'm currently researching parts for a new build to help finish my film and > was curious about the Mac Pro parts (FirePro GPUs, PCI SSD etc.). The huge > dollar issue with the MacPro is GPU and getting good information about > exactly what they has not been easy. > > But I found this published a couple of days ago: > http://wccftech.com/generation-amd-professional-gpu-arrives-firepro-d700-leads-pack-35-teraflops-compute/ > > They claim this is confirmed but I would still not say this is 100%. But > it does further open up the mystery of the GPU parts. They appear to be cut > down, TDP reduced parts to work in the new case. The focus on dual parts > also appears part of the heat/power management issue to balance thermal > throttling that invariably would be part of such a design. > > Apple appears to have made some deal possibly including custom > manufacturing that may allow them to get parts that don't spec out for > higher TDP use (like Intel does with hex vs. quad core parts) and using > them here to give the Mac Pro a GPU price advantage you can't match on > off-the-shelf parts - of course OpenCL performance will need to be part of > question as CUDA is not an option. > > So they are not exactly like any parts you can buy. Additionally, they > likely will have a unique set of drivers, so until someone can actually > carefully benchmark their OpenCL performance, it's near impossible to price > comparison a Mac Pro right now. And it appears for any configuration an > "apple to apple" :) price/build comparison is not possible even with just > the GPU. > > The PCI SSD is also a benchmark test waiting to be done to see if it fact > does deliver the performance difference claimed - but given the > impossibility of putting in a variety of parts for testing in a the new Mac > Pro, this also will likely be somewhat inaccurate. But I'm not sure PCI SSD > vs current SSD options, including a RAID 1 SSD ,offers that much boost. And > the limitations of the storage design in the new Mac Pro introduce a number > of other issues related to expandability, flexibility etc. > > Plus the article does not actually build anything nor benchmark either the > DIY system or the Mac Pro - so all the valuations are essentially > meaningless. It's just an internet shopping cart article. The one published > Geekbench benchmark that was out there is not exactly blazing - and the > only thing that should matter is actual application performance. Until that > is tested - an article like this does not tell you anything other than > Apple used a lot of custom, proprietary parts that you can't buy off the > shelf. > > Throwing money at the effort to mimic the Mac Pro parts list to "prove" > the MacPro is a "value" seems like a waste of time - if you did this with > an iPhone, you would get a similar result. The real question is what Mac > Pro's real world performance in various configs are and what parts are > required to match it. > > My DIY builds are set to give real world performance that matches or > exceed Xenon based setups at half the price. That's perfectly doable on the > CPU side. The Mac Pro may have GPU advantage based on essentially cutting > down workstation cards that we've always expected were overpriced - but > that information has not been tested and 100% proved yet. > > stephen van vuuren > 336.202.4777 > > http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ > http://www.sv2dcp.com/ > http://www.sv2studios.com/ > > A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be > a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, > the meaning, all that comes later. > -Stanley Kubrick > > -----Original Message----- > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] > On Behalf Of Dave Bittner > Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 9:46 AM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] (OT) New Mac Pro - Who's getting it? > > Here's an interesting article on the value proposition of the new Mac Pro. > Turns out it's tough to build a comparable machine for the price. - > > < > http://www.electronista.com/articles/13/12/24/does.better.in.some.areas.but.cant.compete.on.cost.or.specs/ > > > > > On Dec 23, 2013, at 1:20PM, Dave Bittner > > wrote: > > > I've switched our main edit suite system to a 27" i7 iMac after > realizing that it renders about three times faster than the 2008 Mac Pro > it's replacing. I've got a 30" monitor hooked up to it, and a fast external > RAID via a cheap Thunderbolt to SATA adapter. We're running AE, FCPX and > Maya on it, primarily, and for what we do it's plenty fast. (We are rarely > under tight delivery deadlines where rendering speed would make or break > us. In fact, the biggest bottleneck these days seems to be h.264 encoding > for delivery.) > > > > As for the new Mac Pro, if you need the speed it doesn't seem the price > should make all that much difference. Even if you replace it after two > years, a couple of grand difference in price shouldn't break the bank for > an active shop with a decent number of projects coming through. It's > amazing to me that after all these years people are still shocked - > Shocked! - that there's a premium for Mac OS workstations. For our small > shop it's worth it, since we know the Mac OS and know how to troubleshoot > it. > > > > Interesting times, with all of these incredibly fast machines for choose > from. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play Marathon on my Quadra > 700... > > > > > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to > > > > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to > > > -- _____________________________ VFX & Motion Graphic Artist teddygage dot com --047d7b676f7c5a6d7f04ee7b1fa9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eloquent and apt. Everything is hearsay until we see real world=A0benchmark= s. Steven I'd love to hear about your build in a new thread. Is there a= ny chip=A0that has come out on the consumer side=A0that can challenge the h= ex-core=A03930K=A0in price :: performance yet? What are you going with for = graphics?

On Thursday, December 26, 2013, Stephen van Vuuren wrote:
> Here's an interesting article on the value p= roposition of the new Mac Pro. Turns out it's tough to build a comparab= le machine for the price. -

Unfortunately, that's a lazy and poorly researched article. The new Mac= Pro is an intriguing mystery of parts.

I'm currently researching parts for a new build to help finish my film = and was curious about the Mac Pro parts (FirePro GPUs, PCI SSD etc.). The h= uge dollar issue with the MacPro is GPU and getting good information about = exactly what they has not been easy.

But I found this published a couple of days ago: http://wccftech.com/generation-amd-profe= ssional-gpu-arrives-firepro-d700-leads-pack-35-teraflops-compute/

They claim this is confirmed but I would still not say this is 100%. But it= does further open up the mystery of the GPU parts. They appear to be cut d= own, TDP reduced parts to work in the new case. The focus on dual parts als= o appears part of the heat/power management issue to balance thermal thrott= ling that invariably would be part of such a design.

Apple appears to have made some deal possibly including custom manufacturin= g that may allow them to get parts that don't spec out for higher TDP u= se (like Intel does with hex vs. quad core parts) and using them here to gi= ve the Mac Pro a GPU price advantage you can't match on off-the-shelf p= arts - of course OpenCL performance will need to be part of question as CUD= A is not an option.

So they are not exactly like any parts you can buy. Additionally, they like= ly will have a unique set of drivers, so until someone can actually careful= ly benchmark their OpenCL performance, it's near impossible to price co= mparison a Mac Pro right now. And it appears for any configuration an "= ;apple to apple" :) price/build comparison is not possible even with j= ust the GPU.

The PCI SSD is also a benchmark test waiting to be done to see if it fact d= oes deliver the performance difference claimed - but given the impossibilit= y of putting in a variety of parts for testing in a the new Mac Pro, this a= lso will likely be somewhat inaccurate. But I'm not sure PCI SSD vs cur= rent SSD options, including a RAID 1 SSD ,offers that much boost. And the l= imitations of the storage design in the new Mac Pro introduce a number of o= ther issues related to expandability, flexibility etc.

Plus the article does not actually build anything nor benchmark either the = DIY system or the Mac Pro - so all the valuations are essentially meaningle= ss. It's just an internet shopping cart article. The one published Geek= bench benchmark that was out there is not exactly blazing - and the only th= ing that should matter is actual application performance. Until that is tes= ted - an article like this does not tell you anything other than Apple used= a lot of custom, proprietary parts that you can't buy off the shelf.
Throwing money at the effort to mimic the Mac Pro parts list to "prove= " the MacPro is a "value" seems like a waste of time - if yo= u did this with an iPhone, you would get a similar result. The real questio= n is what Mac Pro's real world performance in various configs are and w= hat parts are required to match it.

My DIY builds are set to give real world performance that matches or exceed= Xenon based setups at half the price. That's perfectly doable on the C= PU side. The Mac Pro may have GPU advantage based on essentially cutting do= wn workstation cards that we've always expected were overpriced =A0- bu= t that information has not been tested and 100% proved yet.

stephen van vuuren
336.202.4777

http://www.ins= aturnsrings.com/
http://www.sv2dcp.com/=
http://www.sv2stud= ios.com/

A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be = a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emoti= on, the meaning, all that comes later.
-Stanley Kubrick

-----Original Message-----
From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-= motion.tv] On Behalf Of Dave Bittner
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 9:46 AM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] (OT) New Mac Pro - Who's getting it?

Here's an interesting article on the value proposition of the new Mac P= ro. Turns out it's tough to build a comparable machine for the price. -=

<http://ww= w.electronista.com/articles/13/12/24/does.better.in.some.areas.but.cant.com= pete.on.cost.or.specs/>


On Dec 23, 2013, at 1:20PM, Dave Bittner <dave@pix= elworkshop.com> wrote:

> I've switched our main edit suite system to a 27" i7 iMac aft= er realizing that it renders about three times faster than the 2008 Mac Pro= it's replacing. I've got a 30" monitor hooked up to it, and a= fast external RAID via a cheap Thunderbolt to SATA adapter. We're runn= ing AE, FCPX and Maya on it, primarily, and for what we do it's plenty = fast. (We are rarely under tight delivery deadlines where rendering speed w= ould make or break us. In fact, the biggest bottleneck these days seems to = be h.264 encoding for delivery.)
>
> As for the new Mac Pro, if you need the speed it doesn't seem the = price should make all that much difference. Even if you replace it after tw= o years, a couple of grand difference in price shouldn't break the bank= for an active shop with a decent number of projects coming through. It'= ;s amazing to me that after all these years people are still shocked - Shoc= ked! - that there's a premium for Mac OS workstations. For our small sh= op it's worth it, since we know the Mac OS and know how to troubleshoot= it.
>
> Interesting times, with all of these incredibly fast machines for choo= se from. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play Marathon on = my Quadra 700...
>


+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-o= ff@media-motion.tv>

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--
________= _____________________
VFX &= ; Motion Graphic Artist
teddygage dot com

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