Return-Path: Received: from mail-vb0-f50.google.com ([209.85.212.50] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5352631 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:28:05 +0100 Received: by mail-vb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id w8so2537603vbj.37 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:32:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=X2yqu51/GiEBI2GbhuNlaq28vJi4aAX5kp0Z1c6+lbU=; b=bzKbPHfgAK3FruaTZFdGo5OhtojOfPcfyow4vDpuajL7QkcxOkNAIDmM3gOEyZUf9W y+ZzOUx+/X8czuIB3POx6gH54cvpQ+csqrwexIhCzFb5sobNYDDnBlDgg7Yufukp6fXF j1t1/acGhSXPqTWbtQwxyAroQxajr3aR25W3RfUhD0Q6QqN9FIuCckrrpaV/PC2/BHak 30f0jF9FnxyfgND+1w2bf2Xk104cDFJ/BTxfam8BK6XSp286sZdBf8pGcPZryE4rsWUL RZANgqj/uqb/EmtACrcdilqXjmFIsKf0NOFJ+jos7BzNIWxMp4X1NcbRjALJJIkcDpWD bdrA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.30.230 with SMTP id v6mr2488307vdh.6.1390192324204; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.49.41 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:32:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:32:04 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] H264 From: Rick Gerard To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51d2eb8a789fd04f05f5f4d --bcaec51d2eb8a789fd04f05f5f4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In response to Brian Higgins... there is no DPI for video, only pixels Concerning H.264, no matter what the compression settings or the container the format is compressed. No way round it. In almost every case h.264 is NOT suitable for a digital intermediate but suitable for a delivery format. The format may be up to 14 bit color and may have very minimal compression artifacts but the format is still highly compressed except for the Hi444PP format definitely not lossless. If a client is asking for lossless h.264 then you must make sure they specify everything. Just jumping into the AME and grabbing the highest bit rate you can won't do the job. Also you must consider that the more exotic the compression scheme the fewer devices and softwares are availble to decompress it for playback or production. Wikipedia has a nice run down of the format and many white papers are available on line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC IMHO h.264 is NOT generally suitable for a digital intermediate in a production pipeline but that does not mean people are not using it and using it incorrectly. There are certainly more opportunities to use h.264 incorrectly than correctly as a production format. In the end you need to supply what the client asks for, but if the client is asking for something that does not exist or does not fit their intended use, it is you duty as a vendor to explain to them the limitations and offer a solution that will meet their needs. If you do that your E&O insurance provider will be happy with you and you rates won't go up because you will not keep getting sued for failure to deliver. Even if client specifies a delivery product does not meet all of their stated needs, if you supply that product to them and it does not meet intended use you are liable for damages.... It's that way in highway and bridge construction and it's that way in video production. You are hired as an expert and you are expected to know. On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Adam Mercado wrote: > That's good to know teddy. I had a situation similar a couple of weeks ag= o > trying to convert an mkv from the client into something useful. Spent a > similar amount of time trying to find a solution. Hacked a workaround but > this would have been useful. > > Cheers > > Sent from the ubiquitous Apple communication device I like to call Boris. > Hence the brevity and poor spelling. > > On Jan 19, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: > > Sort of off-topic: the other day I needed to convert an AVC/h264 file in > an .avi wrapper that was output from an old screen capture software for a > series of tutorials. It needed to be editable, and easily iDevice > compatible. I can tell you I tried every F-ing thing I could think of > involving AVIsynth, FFmpeg, VLC, QT 7 Pro, VirtualDub/Mod, FCP, Premiere > Pro and nothing would convert it. It only played through VLC. > > We are talking 10 hour-long .avis, at 5 GB each. Then I found this > AiSeeSoft Total Video Converter software, sucked it up and paid $40 and > it's the best switchblade conversion tool I have ever used. It will inges= t > anything and batch output any format, with about 90 presets of devices an= d > codecs. I think it even does Prores on PC, it definitely will output 10 b= it > DNxHD with alpha support, and it uses CUDA / OpenCL. I converted 2 hours = of > AVC into .mp4 in about 20 minutes at a 4:1 compression. For example it > will even demux .mkv matroska files. Definitely worth a look if anyone ru= ns > into these issues. > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Jonathan wrote: > >> Great solution, Teddy. >> >> I gotta admit it can be confusing sometimes, even for someone like mysel= f >> who entertains the idea that I know a fair amount about this stuff. A lo= ng >> time ago I had a conversation with a Panasonic engineer who was talking >> about 720 and thinking, oh yeah, I do 720, meaning, 720 X 540 (or 486). = Of >> course he was talking about 1280 X 720 but HD had barely scratched the >> outer reaches of my consciousness back then. This was in the 90s sometim= e. >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: >> >> I had a client ask for a "quicktime, an .mp4, and an .h264" >> >> So I relabled the same file with three different extensions >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jonathan wrote: >> >>> They seem to think they can get an uncompressed file from H264, yes. >>> >>> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:15 AM, Tim Thiessen wrote: >>> >>> So they want an uncompressed compressed file? >>> >>> iPhone >>> >>> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Jonathan wrote: >>> >>> I'm searching for a clarity . . . >>> >>> A client is asking for "H264 with the highest settings, 8bit >>> uncompressed." H264 is, by definition compressed, correct? And though t= here >>> are in theory, versions of H264 that are 10 bit, the garden variety H26= 4 >>> (created in, for example, Quicktime) is 8 bit. So the only part of thi= s >>> request that makes sense is "highest settings," right? >>> >>> Any insights greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> >>> *JONATHAN PENZNER* >>> VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION GRAPHICS =95 DESIGN >>> >>> | STUDIO 626 345-0285 | >>> | CELL 818 321-2890 | >>> >>> sundancerealtime@me.com >>> >>> > > > -- > _____________________________ > VFX & Motion Graphic Artist > teddygage dot com > > --=20 Rick Gerard --bcaec51d2eb8a789fd04f05f5f4d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In response to Brian Higgins... there is no DPI for video,= only pixels

Concerning H.264, no matter what the compre= ssion settings or the container the format is compressed. No way round it. = In almost every case h.264 is NOT suitable for a digital intermediate but s= uitable for a delivery format.=A0

The format may be up to 14 bit color and may have very = minimal compression artifacts but the format is still highly compressed exc= ept for the Hi444PP format definitely not lossless. If a client is asking f= or lossless h.264 then you must make sure they specify everything. Just jum= ping into the AME and grabbing the highest bit rate you can won't do th= e job. Also you must consider that the more exotic the compression scheme t= he fewer devices and softwares are availble to decompress it for playback o= r production.

Wikipedia has a nice run down of the format and many wh= ite papers are available on line.


IMHO h.264 is NOT generally suitable for a digita= l intermediate in a production pipeline but that does not mean people are n= ot using it and using it incorrectly. There are certainly more opportunitie= s to use h.264 incorrectly than correctly as a production format.=A0

In the end you need to supply what the client asks for,= but if the client is asking for something that does not exist or does not = fit their intended use, it is you duty as a vendor to explain to them the l= imitations and offer a solution that will meet their needs. If you do that = your E&O insurance provider will be happy with you and you rates won= 9;t go up because you will not keep getting sued for failure to deliver. Ev= en if client specifies a delivery product does not meet all of their stated= needs, if you supply that product to them and it does not meet intended us= e you are liable for damages.... It's that way in highway and bridge co= nstruction and it's that way in video production. You are hired as an e= xpert and you are expected to know.



On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Adam Mercado = <adam@influxx.com> wrote:
That's good to kn= ow teddy. I had a situation similar a couple of weeks ago trying to convert= an mkv from the client into something useful. Spent a similar amount of ti= me trying to find a solution. Hacked a workaround but this would have been = useful.=A0

Cheers

Sent from the ubiquitous Apple communicat= ion device I like to call Boris. Hence the brevity and poor spelling.=A0

On Jan 19, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Teddy Gage <= teddygage@gmail.co= m> wrote:

Sort of off-topic: the other day I needed to convert an AVC/h264 f= ile in an .avi wrapper that was output from an old screen capture software = for a series of tutorials. It needed to be editable, and easily iDevice com= patible. I can tell you I tried every F-ing thing I could think of involvin= g AVIsynth, FFmpeg, VLC, QT 7 Pro, VirtualDub/Mod, FCP, Premiere Pro and no= thing would convert it. It only played through VLC.=A0

We are talking 10 hour-long .avis, at 5 GB each. Then I foun= d this AiSeeSoft Total Video Converter software, sucked it up and paid $40 = and it's the best switchblade conversion tool I have ever used. It will= ingest anything and batch output any format, with about 90 presets of devi= ces and codecs. I think it even does Prores on PC, it definitely will outpu= t 10 bit DNxHD with alpha support, and it uses CUDA / OpenCL. I converted 2= hours of AVC into .mp4 in about 20 minutes at a 4:1 compression.=A0=A0For = example it will even demux .mkv matroska files.=A0Definitely worth a look i= f anyone runs into these issues.


<= div class=3D"im">On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Jonathan <sureal@charte= r.net> wrote:
Great solution, Teddy.

I gott= a admit it can be confusing sometimes, even for someone like myself who ent= ertains the idea that I know a fair amount about this stuff. A long time ag= o I had a conversation with a Panasonic engineer who was talking about 720 = and thinking, oh yeah, I do 720, meaning, 720 X 540 (or 486). Of course he = was talking about 1280 X 720 but HD had barely scratched the outer reaches = of my consciousness back then. This was in the 90s sometime.


Jonathan



On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:

I had a client ask fo= r a "quicktime, an .mp4, and an .h264"

So I re= labled the same file with three different extensions


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> wrote:
They seem to think they can g= et an uncompressed file from H264, yes.

=
On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:15 AM, Tim Thiessen wrote:

So they want an uncompressed compressed file?

iPhone

On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:07 AM, = Jonathan <sureal= @charter.net> wrote:

I'= ;m searching for a clarity . . .

A client is asking for= "H264 with the highest settings, 8bit uncompressed." H264 is, by= definition compressed, correct? And though there are in theory, versions o= f H264 that are 10 bit, the garden variety H264 (created in, for example, Q= uicktime) is 8 bit. =A0So the only part of this request that makes sense is= "highest settings," right?

Any insights greatly appreciated.

<= br>
Jonathan


<= span style=3D"letter-spacing:0px">JONATHAN=A0PENZNER
VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION GRAPHICS =95 DE= SIGN

|=A0STUDIO =A0 =A0 =A0626 345-0285=A0= |
<= span>|=A0CELL =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= 81= 8 321-2890=A0|

=
<= /blockquote>



--=
_____________________________
VFX &= amp; Motion Graphic Artist
teddygage dot com



=
--
Rick Gerard --bcaec51d2eb8a789fd04f05f5f4d--