Return-Path: Received: from dub0-omc4-s27.dub0.hotmail.com ([157.55.2.102] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 5352996 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:40:51 +0100 Received: from DUB128-DS7 ([157.55.2.73]) by dub0-omc4-s27.dub0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:44:51 -0800 X-TMN: [7EjhySBzRkntXNFeNvEM1zeadeQjogiv] X-Originating-Email: [sundstedt@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Return-Path: sundstedt@hotmail.com From: Anders Sundstedt To: "After Effects Mail List" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [AE] H264 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:44:49 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0291_01CF15E5.CA17B880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3508.205 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3508.205 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2014 13:44:51.0925 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB487050:01CF15E5] ------=_NextPart_000_0291_01CF15E5.CA17B880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct me if I am wrong but I think Brian was joking about asking them = about what DPI they wanted, and that=92s why it was very funny of = Jonathan to reply 300, fer sure? Anyhow, thanks Rick and everyone else for information on this. I=92m still not clear on by using max output settings in AE for = QuickTime, H.264, I know that H.264 is a compressed format, but for = 8-bit source images and vector graphics projects, I was under the = impression that H.264 .mov with maximum settings is a non-destructive = compressed format?=20 Just like for example FLAC lossless codec for Audio, so compressed = without loss in quality? Is the answer yes or no? -Anders From: Rick Gerard=20 Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 4:32 AM To: After Effects Mail List=20 Subject: Re: [AE] H264 In response to Brian Higgins... there is no DPI for video, only pixels=20 Concerning H.264, no matter what the compression settings or the = container the format is compressed. No way round it. In almost every = case h.264 is NOT suitable for a digital intermediate but suitable for a = delivery format.=20 The format may be up to 14 bit color and may have very minimal = compression artifacts but the format is still highly compressed except = for the Hi444PP format definitely not lossless. If a client is asking = for lossless h.264 then you must make sure they specify everything. Just = jumping into the AME and grabbing the highest bit rate you can won't do = the job. Also you must consider that the more exotic the compression = scheme the fewer devices and softwares are availble to decompress it for = playback or production. Wikipedia has a nice run down of the format and many white papers are = available on line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC IMHO h.264 is NOT generally suitable for a digital intermediate in a = production pipeline but that does not mean people are not using it and = using it incorrectly. There are certainly more opportunities to use = h.264 incorrectly than correctly as a production format.=20 In the end you need to supply what the client asks for, but if the = client is asking for something that does not exist or does not fit their = intended use, it is you duty as a vendor to explain to them the = limitations and offer a solution that will meet their needs. If you do = that your E&O insurance provider will be happy with you and you rates = won't go up because you will not keep getting sued for failure to = deliver. Even if client specifies a delivery product does not meet all = of their stated needs, if you supply that product to them and it does = not meet intended use you are liable for damages.... It's that way in = highway and bridge construction and it's that way in video production. = You are hired as an expert and you are expected to know. On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Adam Mercado wrote: That's good to know teddy. I had a situation similar a couple of weeks = ago trying to convert an mkv from the client into something useful. = Spent a similar amount of time trying to find a solution. Hacked a = workaround but this would have been useful.=20 Cheers Sent from the ubiquitous Apple communication device I like to call = Boris. Hence the brevity and poor spelling.=20 On Jan 19, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: Sort of off-topic: the other day I needed to convert an AVC/h264 = file in an .avi wrapper that was output from an old screen capture = software for a series of tutorials. It needed to be editable, and easily = iDevice compatible. I can tell you I tried every F-ing thing I could = think of involving AVIsynth, FFmpeg, VLC, QT 7 Pro, VirtualDub/Mod, FCP, = Premiere Pro and nothing would convert it. It only played through VLC. =20 We are talking 10 hour-long .avis, at 5 GB each. Then I found this = AiSeeSoft Total Video Converter software, sucked it up and paid $40 and = it's the best switchblade conversion tool I have ever used. It will = ingest anything and batch output any format, with about 90 presets of = devices and codecs. I think it even does Prores on PC, it definitely = will output 10 bit DNxHD with alpha support, and it uses CUDA / OpenCL. = I converted 2 hours of AVC into .mp4 in about 20 minutes at a 4:1 = compression. For example it will even demux .mkv matroska files. = Definitely worth a look if anyone runs into these issues. On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Jonathan = wrote: Great solution, Teddy. I gotta admit it can be confusing sometimes, even for someone like = myself who entertains the idea that I know a fair amount about this = stuff. A long time ago I had a conversation with a Panasonic engineer = who was talking about 720 and thinking, oh yeah, I do 720, meaning, 720 = X 540 (or 486). Of course he was talking about 1280 X 720 but HD had = barely scratched the outer reaches of my consciousness back then. This = was in the 90s sometime. Jonathan On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Teddy Gage wrote: I had a client ask for a "quicktime, an .mp4, and an .h264"=20 So I relabled the same file with three different extensions On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jonathan = wrote: They seem to think they can get an uncompressed file from = H264, yes. On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:15 AM, Tim Thiessen wrote: So they want an uncompressed compressed file? iPhone On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Jonathan = wrote: I'm searching for a clarity . . . A client is asking for "H264 with the highest settings, = 8bit uncompressed." H264 is, by definition compressed, correct? And = though there are in theory, versions of H264 that are 10 bit, the garden = variety H264 (created in, for example, Quicktime) is 8 bit. So the only = part of this request that makes sense is "highest settings," right?=20 Any insights greatly appreciated. Jonathan JONATHAN PENZNER VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION GRAPHICS =95 DESIGN | STUDIO 626 345-0285 | | CELL 818 321-2890 | sundancerealtime@me.com --=20 _____________________________ VFX & Motion Graphic Artist teddygage dot com --=20 Rick Gerard ------=_NextPart_000_0291_01CF15E5.CA17B880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct me if I am wrong but I think Brian was joking about asking = them=20 about what DPI they wanted, and that=92s why it was very funny of = Jonathan to=20 reply 300, fer sure?
 
Anyhow, thanks Rick and everyone else for information on = this.
 
I=92m still not clear on by using max output settings in AE for = QuickTime,=20 H.264, I know that H.264 is a compressed format, but for 8-bit source = images and=20 vector graphics projects, I was under the impression that H.264 .mov = with=20 maximum settings is a non-destructive compressed format?
 
Just like for example FLAC lossless codec for Audio, so compressed = without=20 loss in quality? Is the answer yes or no?
 
-Anders
 
 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 4:32 AM
Subject: Re: [AE] H264
 
In response to Brian Higgins... there is no DPI for = video, only=20 pixels=20
 
Concerning H.264, no matter what the compression settings or the = container=20 the format is compressed. No way round it. In almost every case h.264 is = NOT=20 suitable for a digital intermediate but suitable for a delivery format. =
 
The format may be up to 14 bit color and may have very minimal = compression=20 artifacts but the format is still highly compressed except for the = Hi444PP=20 format definitely not lossless. If a client is asking for lossless h.264 = then=20 you must make sure they specify everything. Just jumping into the AME = and=20 grabbing the highest bit rate you can won't do the job. Also you must = consider=20 that the more exotic the compression scheme the fewer devices and = softwares are=20 availble to decompress it for playback or production.
 
Wikipedia has a nice run down of the format and many white papers = are=20 available on line.
 
http://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC
 
IMHO h.264 is NOT generally suitable for a digital intermediate in = a=20 production pipeline but that does not mean people are not using it and = using it=20 incorrectly. There are certainly more opportunities to use h.264 = incorrectly=20 than correctly as a production format.
 
In the end you need to supply what the client asks for, but if the = client=20 is asking for something that does not exist or does not fit their = intended use,=20 it is you duty as a vendor to explain to them the limitations and offer = a=20 solution that will meet their needs. If you do that your E&O = insurance=20 provider will be happy with you and you rates won't go up because you = will not=20 keep getting sued for failure to deliver. Even if client specifies a = delivery=20 product does not meet all of their stated needs, if you supply that = product to=20 them and it does not meet intended use you are liable for damages.... = It's that=20 way in highway and bridge construction and it's that way in video = production.=20 You are hired as an expert and you are expected to know.
 
 


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Adam Mercado = <adam@influxx.com> wrote:
That's good to know teddy. I had a situation similar a couple of = weeks=20 ago trying to convert an mkv from the client into something useful. = Spent a=20 similar amount of time trying to find a solution. Hacked a workaround = but this=20 would have been useful.
 
Cheers

Sent from the ubiquitous Apple communication device = I like=20 to call Boris. Hence the brevity and poor spelling.

On Jan 19, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Teddy Gage <teddygage@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

Sort of off-topic: the other day I needed to convert = an=20 AVC/h264 file in an .avi wrapper that was output from an old screen = capture=20 software for a series of tutorials. It needed to be editable, and = easily=20 iDevice compatible. I can tell you I tried every F-ing thing I could = think=20 of involving AVIsynth, FFmpeg, VLC, QT 7 Pro, VirtualDub/Mod, FCP, = Premiere=20 Pro and nothing would convert it. It only played through VLC. =20
 
We are talking 10 hour-long .avis, at 5 GB each. Then I found = this=20 AiSeeSoft Total Video Converter software, sucked it up and paid $40 = and it's=20 the best switchblade conversion tool I have ever used. It will = ingest=20 anything and batch output any format, with about 90 presets of = devices and=20 codecs. I think it even does Prores on PC, it definitely will output = 10 bit=20 DNxHD with alpha support, and it uses CUDA / OpenCL. I converted 2 = hours of=20 AVC into .mp4 in about 20 minutes at a 4:1 compression.  For = example it=20 will even demux .mkv matroska files. Definitely worth a look if = anyone runs=20 into these issues.


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> wrote:
Great solution, Teddy.
 
I gotta admit it can be confusing sometimes, even for someone = like=20 myself who entertains the idea that I know a fair amount about = this stuff.=20 A long time ago I had a conversation with a Panasonic engineer who = was=20 talking about 720 and thinking, oh yeah, I do 720, meaning, 720 X = 540 (or=20 486). Of course he was talking about 1280 X 720 but HD had barely=20 scratched the outer reaches of my consciousness back then. This = was in the=20 90s sometime.
 
 
Jonathan
 
 

On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Teddy Gage wrote:
 
I had a client ask for a "quicktime, an .mp4, and = an .h264"=20
 
So I relabled the same file with three different=20 extensions


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> = wrote:
They seem to think they can get an uncompressed file from = H264,=20 yes.
 
On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:15 AM, Tim Thiessen wrote:
 
So they want an uncompressed compressed file?

iPhone

On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Jonathan <sureal@charter.net> = wrote:

I'm searching for a clarity . . .
 
A client is asking for "H264 with the = highest=20 settings, 8bit uncompressed." H264 is, by definition = compressed,=20 correct? And though there are in theory, versions of H264 = that are=20 10 bit, the garden variety H264 (created in, for example,=20 Quicktime) is 8 bit.  So the only part of this = request that=20 makes sense is "highest settings," right?=20
 
Any insights greatly appreciated.
 
 
Jonathan
 
 
JONATHAN = PENZNER
VIDEO EDITING =95 MOTION = GRAPHICS =95=20 DESIGN

| = STUDIO     =20 626=20 345-0285 |
|=20 = CELL          =20 818=20 321-2890 |

sundancerealtime@me.com


 
--
_____________________________
VFX = & Motion=20 Graphic Artist
teddygage dot=20 = com
<= /DIV>
 
--
Rick Gerard = ------=_NextPart_000_0291_01CF15E5.CA17B880--