Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5472590 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 13 May 2014 23:42:01 +0200 Received: from [10.1.1.100] (75-135-165-0.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com [75.135.165.0]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M6kE0-1WyXvW0hLI-00wcSJ; Tue, 13 May 2014 17:41:59 -0400 From: Steve Oakley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8588105A-D33A-4FFE-BFCA-2168B5091772" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Lossless movie format Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 16:41:57 -0500 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:MVTO3fjQeRVVmwW0pt7UJwb51vqShHaPy/VxH95wrph S6ors8LUOfZBXmQh37SquhX2yLkStYs8HHdCdgQFPxEry5R0Jl AZVou9tfWyhRQa9Y2VK9hGoz+kRWkzRbuzqvINcc4LJgS3jWgr dWfXyzTO6tlRCKR4+DKmCCEqOnKHtphZx3u5VxFsULqFjR/gYg EjzCFtyn0hsfjd0H3iQukNHFwS2XxSzcD/lRw5JRxD8jYxgbY9 aRoE87OIazNK4OqGeygrnENiw/nF5eJ6qBN74Z5kZAIkW1f7wN 5rlABHg97YOresr512DKAgvwSj9G+eyqsfW6fpDHYwINxLzktY yfV59KdZ0gBqKwF7b2eO8kph/7vhkMdbojH1NxL0VRznOV+WX8 78pQbDsvcBQhg== --Apple-Mail=_8588105A-D33A-4FFE-BFCA-2168B5091772 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 well h.264 is an interesting question. while often thought of as a very = compressed long GOP format, it can be iframe, 10/12+ bits, 4:2:2 and = 4:4:4 with a high enough bit rate to be near lossless.=20 while the format you propose would like to directly avoid any patent = encumbered technology, having it be open enough that a suitable h.264/5 = codec could be added might well turn out to be a critical item in = getting wider usage. another developer could bring in a suitable codec = component.=20 ditto ProRes as odd as that might sound given its widespread use in = cameras and recorders.=20 Steve Oakley 920 544 2230c steveoakley.net=20 DP =95 Sound =95 Colorist =95 Editor=20 NY/LA/WI/ Where ever you fly me On May 13, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Brendan Bolles = wrote: > On May 13, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Benny Christensen wrote: >=20 >> The number one thing I would like to see is for the container to also = be the app to play the spot, so that each spot can be played on any = system without installing any other apps (and I get why this might be = too hard or it would have already happened). >>=20 >> However, this would sort of future proof the movies. There is nothing = worse than finding a movie and then not being able to play it on newer = systems for whatever reason. >=20 >=20 > Unfortunately, I do not think that would future-proof the movies. = Perhaps the opposite. >=20 > How often has an OS update made a program stop working? What if now = your movies stopped working? This is another beef I have with QuickTime = - since programs use the QuickTime service to read the files, a system = update could eliminate a codec you had been using and break your files = in every program. >=20 > Since OpenEXR has an open source library, even if your software has = been broken by an OS update, you just have to get another program built = with the latest OS in mind. >=20 > Also, these movies would not be cross-platform as generally an app is = made for one particular operating system. (Maybe Java?) >=20 >=20 > I understand the desire to have a file you can send to people and be = guaranteed they could play it back without needing to install anything, = but I don't think we'll get there any time soon. The best we can do is = have a format like MP4 with H.264 which is so ubiquitous that virtually = anyone with a web browser should be able to play it. But that format is = no good for production, so we need POM. >=20 >=20 > Brendan >=20 >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to --Apple-Mail=_8588105A-D33A-4FFE-BFCA-2168B5091772 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 well = h.264 is an interesting question. while often thought of as a very = compressed long GOP format, it can be iframe, 10/12+ bits, 4:2:2 and = 4:4:4 with a high enough  bit rate to be near = lossless. 

while the format you propose would = like to directly avoid any patent encumbered technology, having it be = open enough that a suitable h.264/5 codec could be added might well turn = out to be a critical item in getting wider usage. another developer = could bring in a suitable codec = component. 

ditto ProRes as odd as that = might sound given its widespread use in cameras and = recorders. 

Steve Oakley

920 544 = 2230c
DP =95= Sound =95 Colorist =95 Editor 
NY/LA/WI/ Where ever you = fly me

On May 13, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Brendan Bolles <brendan@fnordware.com> = wrote:

On May 13, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Benny Christensen = wrote:

The number one thing I would = like to see is for the container to also be the app to play the spot, so = that each spot can be played on any system without installing any other = apps (and I get why this might be too hard or it would have already = happened).

However, this would sort of future proof the movies. = There is nothing worse than finding a movie and then not being able to = play it on newer systems for whatever = reason.


Unfortunately, I do not think that would = future-proof the movies.  Perhaps the opposite.

How often = has an OS update made a program stop working?  What if now your = movies stopped working?  This is another beef I have with QuickTime = - since programs use the QuickTime service to read the files, a system = update could eliminate a codec you had been using and break your files = in every program.

Since OpenEXR has an open source library, even = if your software has been broken by an OS update, you just have to get = another program built with the latest OS in mind.

Also, these = movies would not be cross-platform as generally an app is made for one = particular operating system.  (Maybe Java?)


I understand = the desire to have a file you can send to people and be guaranteed they = could play it back without needing to install anything, but I don't = think we'll get there any time soon.  The best we can do is have a = format like MP4 with H.264 which is so ubiquitous that virtually anyone = with a web browser should be able to play it.  But that format is = no good for production, so we need = POM.


Brendan


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