From: "Roei Tzoref" Received: from mail-qa0-f50.google.com ([209.85.216.50] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5492285 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 14:41:14 +0200 Received: by mail-qa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id j15so4752072qaq.9 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 05:41:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=CN9OrsGYTxl8WdosyPY34GzPMVYjn4PbToa+5EiCsqU=; b=YPBZZw2Mf9L1JrpEi9ugRkWZMg/Pn1sYhpvLly14hGPxv16J/tlt203qlUfH7E6TBS HWmTxp7hnbSDRt8ra4tITw8FyCWwVEnqA7t0ftsfxnOcnAHQ6+3jIMOZ3WBy8eWXpiRq wlPjNb9NwTRx9rp50Bacpe7qhniPzuDv02vHne1U2hws6jzP9cHuIwbO293ABOX7nu1H qYPAIcgv+z2GqD40L7JbyZMPb6y7Y9SbATXoNZ16oHqnCzI0u2WO/hq0cwjvGXuP9ED7 +skjmH1g1ZCUyNn5yIxjdL8qqQ9Bie51MB/Tbl+xPXCp94WwrtXvBFNXHUfxj3bbZw1B nNDg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.87.5 with SMTP id q5mr57490767qgd.43.1401799272998; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 05:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.42.198 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 05:41:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:41:12 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Tracking Iphone/Ipad screen replacement - green or not? To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ab2ecb6c65304faedd3a0 --001a113ab2ecb6c65304faedd3a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 thank you Robert. but wouldn't the bright screen lose the blend mode option in the composite after?. notice the glow and flare coming from the sun creating that lighting on the screen, and of course there are real reflections where you see the girls face (sec 37). when you put and image on that black and use screen mode you're pretty much done. (if the track is good..) On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Robert Kjettrup wrote: > Many other have already given good advice, but i would suggest an > middle/light grey on the screen to give the fingers around the phone a > natural lighting from the screen, that helps sell the shot much better than > just a black screen and the too dark contact of finger on the screen in the > recording. This is more important in a dark setting, maybe not so much in a > brightly sun lit situation like you show here, then the relative small > amount of light the screen gives wouldn't be so noticeable. > > Avoid tracking markers on screens, with Mocha they usually is not needed, > and you have to spend time removing them. :-) > > In the case you show with the sun backlight i would have tried to put a > white screen on the phone to see if it would show at all in that lighting, > and if not, i would put on markers in this one case to just get an easier > track and just fake the reflection > > ...and i would again probably use Mocha to track a mask for the finger... > Mocha is really a nice tool > > > btw. i love this list when so many contribute with good answers to > questions. :-) > > - Robert > > > > 2014-06-02 18:18 GMT+02:00 Mr. Eric D. Kirk : > > Well, all said and done, I guess I need to rethink the use of track dots >> for my next screen replacement. >> >> Just for clarification though for those Mocha experts, if the dots are >> ripped pieces of tape (essentially making them square), with more distinct >> corners, does Mocha treat it any differently? >> >> I was always of the thought that something distinct is better than >> nothing. >> >> Thanks, >> Eric >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Ross Shain >> wrote: >> >>> On that note, a cool trick is to go into the clip tab in mocha and >>> adjust the color space, gamma, etc. The clip tab color settings occur first >>> in the stream, so it will influence the tracker, no need to render. >>> >>> That said, it is extremely rare that I use this technique. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2014, at 11:35 AM, "Teddy Gage" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey if the shot is over or under exposed there is a trick I use to give >>> mocha more tracking info - We were shooting very flat ARRIRAW 4444 for a >>> project and I was having a really hard time tracking a few shots, so I >>> re-rendered the footage with the LUT baked in and majorly boosted the >>> levels contrast. When I ran the footage back through Mocha it had a much >>> easier time locking on to the plane edges. Then I just applied the track to >>> the original footage and it worked great. So try adding sharpening and >>> balancing the histogram, and re-rendering just for the tracking bits, it >>> could help. Unfortunately you do have to render it first, as mocha will not >>> pick up any AE filters just applied on the timeline >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Roei Tzoref >>> wrote: >>> >>>> thanks Ross, that sounds like a good compromise. >>>> >>>> I will look in the tutorial as well. from scrubbing through I see it >>>> has an ipad screen replacement with real reflections >>>> it looks proper lit (not like mine which is very dark and creates more >>>> problems). >>>> >>>> about the shot to give I will contact you directly in a moment. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Ross Shain >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would personally recommend avoiding green and simply have the device >>>>> set to display a medium/dark grey screen that will show "some" reflection >>>>> but also give you visual reference of the screen edges against the black >>>>> border. In general, if you track the edges and avoid the actual screen, >>>>> mocha should be fine. Also note, placing small white dots on a black screen >>>>> is not necessarily going to "help" mocha. mocha's planar tracker is looking >>>>> for texture. So if possible, use a pattern and not a "round, white dot". >>>>> >>>>> Here is a link to a free 1.5 hr training webinar that specifically >>>>> covers using mocha for difficult screen inserts. I would highly recommend >>>>> this to any AE artist that has used mocha for the basics, but does not >>>>> fully grasp some of the more advanced techniques for avoiding reflections, >>>>> handling the really difficult tracks or the AdjustTrack module. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.imagineersystems.com/videos/webinar-replay-tracking-dificult-screens-with-mocha/ >>>>> >>>>> Imagineer is always looking for difficult tracking shots to use for >>>>> tutorials and testing, so if you have any - please let me know. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Ross >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ross Shain >>>>> Chief Marketing Officer >>>>> Imagineer Systems - developers of* mocha* planar tracking and visual >>>>> effects tools. >>>>> >>>>> www.imagineersystems.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2 June 2014 10:40, Teddy Gage wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We use small tracking target stickers at each corner of the screen >>>>>> and mocha takes care of the rest. How experienced are you with mocha? Even >>>>>> the most difficult tracks can be accomplished manually but there are a lot >>>>>> of ways to do it you may not know about. There are some great advanced tuts >>>>>> online even pros could learn from. >>>>>> >>>>>> We never use green because as you said it blocks reflections, but >>>>>> more importantly you can get green spill on the actors that is harder to >>>>>> manage. >>>>>> On Jun 2, 2014 10:28 AM, "Roei Tzoref" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey y'all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recently tracked different kind of Iphone and Ipads screen >>>>>>> replacements >>>>>>> with different methods, and cant be sure whats the optimal way of >>>>>>> preparing the shoot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my question is: >>>>>>> *do you use green on iphone and ipads where **good reflections are >>>>>>> needed to sell the shot?* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my considerations are: >>>>>>> on one hand: >>>>>>> with green sticker -> better track and maybe easier roto, but you >>>>>>> do have to remove it >>>>>>> and no reflections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> on the other hand: >>>>>>> without green sticker -> more rotoscoping, sometimes difficult >>>>>>> track, but good reflections. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the way I decided doing it was with no green because mocha can track >>>>>>> just with >>>>>>> the shapes and proportions and the green I get usually its just a >>>>>>> pain to remove >>>>>>> and although helps me with the track, I do have to remove it and >>>>>>> replace it. and >>>>>>> usually it doesn't help me with keying it because the shot is lit >>>>>>> for the main action >>>>>>> and not the green inside. the problem is I got a shot with bright >>>>>>> sun behind >>>>>>> and the track was very hard. a green would have at least help with >>>>>>> the shear shift. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what do you recommend as the best course of action for iphones and >>>>>>> ipads >>>>>>> and GUI screens in general (where you need the reflections)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ross Shain >>>>> Chief Marketing Officer >>>>> Imagineer Systems - developers of* mocha* planar tracking and visual >>>>> effects tools. >>>>> >>>>> www.imagineersystems.com >>>>> Phone: +1.646.298.6458 | Fax: 646.808.0831 | Email: >>>>> rosss@imagineersystems.com >>>>> >>>>> Find us online: >>>>> Facebook | Twitter >>>>> | YouTube >>>>> | Vimeo >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _____________________________ >>> VFX & Motion Graphic Artist >>> teddygage dot com >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Eric D. Kirk | **Kirk Productions* >> *Hidden in the Woods | VFX* >> *The Night Visitor | VFX* >> *443.206.1347 <443.206.1347>* >> >> *www.kirkproductions.com >> kirkproductions@gmail.com >> * >> *IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3351363/ >> * >> >> > > --001a113ab2ecb6c65304faedd3a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
thank you Robert. but wouldn't the bright screen lose = the blend mode option in the composite after?.=C2=A0
notice the glow and flare=C2=A0coming from the= sun creating that lighting on the screen,
and of course there are real reflections where you see the girls face=C2=A0(sec 37).=C2=A0
when you put and image on that black and use screen mode you&#= 39;re pretty much done. (if the track is good..)


On Mon,= Jun 2, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Robert Kjettrup <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Many other have already giv= en good advice, but i would suggest an middle/light grey on the screen to g= ive the fingers around the phone a natural lighting from the screen, that h= elps sell the shot much better than just a black screen and the too dark co= ntact of finger on the screen in the recording. This is more important in a= dark setting, maybe not so much in a brightly sun lit situation like you s= how here, then the relative small amount of light the screen gives wouldn&#= 39;t be so noticeable.

Avoid tracking markers on screens, with Mocha they usually i= s not needed, and you have to spend time removing them. :-)

<= /div>
In the case you show with the sun backlight i would have tried to= put a white screen on the phone to see if it would show at all in that lig= hting, and if not, i would put on markers in this one case to just get an e= asier track and just fake the reflection

...and i would again probably use Mocha to track a mask= for the finger... Mocha is really a nice tool

btw. i love this list when so many contribute with good answers= to questions. :-)

- Robert=C2=A0



201= 4-06-02 18:18 GMT+02:00 Mr. Eric D. Kirk <AE-List@media-motion.tv>:

Well, all said and don= e, I guess I need to rethink the use of track dots for my next screen repla= cement.
=C2=A0
Just for clarification though for those Mocha experts= , if the dots are ripped pieces of tape (essentially making them square), w= ith more distinct corners, does Mocha treat it any differently?
=C2=A0
I was always of the thought that something distinct i= s better than nothing.
=C2=A0
Thanks,
Eric


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Ross Shain <AE-List@media-motion.= tv> wrote:
On that note, a cool = trick is to go into the clip tab in mocha and adjust the color space, gamma= , etc. The clip tab color settings occur first in the stream, so it will in= fluence the tracker, no need to render.

That said, it is extremely rare that I use this techniq= ue.=C2=A0

Sent from my iPhone
Hey if the shot i= s over or under exposed there is a trick I use to give mocha more tracking = info - We were shooting very flat ARRIRAW 4444 for a project and I was havi= ng a really hard time tracking a few shots, so I re-rendered the footage wi= th the LUT baked in and majorly boosted the levels contrast. When I ran the= footage back through Mocha it had a much easier time locking on to the pla= ne edges. Then I just applied the track to the original footage and it work= ed great. So try adding sharpening and balancing the =C2=A0histogram, and r= e-rendering just for the tracking bits, it could help. Unfortunately you do= have to render it first, as mocha will not pick up any AE filters just app= lied on the timeline


On Mon, Jun 2= , 2014 at 11:27 AM, Roei Tzoref <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
thanks Ross, that sounds like a good comp= romise.

I will look in the tutorial as well. =C2=A0from scrubbing th= rough I see it has an ipad screen replacement with real reflections
it looks proper lit (not like mine which is very dark and creates more= problems).

about the shot to give I will contact you directly= in a moment.


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Ross Shain <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
I would personally recomm= end avoiding green and simply have the device set to display a medium/dark = grey screen that will show "some" reflection but also give you vi= sual reference of the screen edges against the black border. In general, if= you track the edges and avoid the actual screen, mocha should be fine. Als= o note, placing small white dots on a black screen is not necessarily going= to "help" mocha. mocha's planar tracker is looking for textu= re. So if possible, use a pattern and not a "round, white dot".= =C2=A0

Here is a link to a free 1.5 hr training webinar that s= pecifically covers using mocha for difficult screen inserts. I would highly= recommend this to any AE artist that has used mocha for the basics, but do= es not fully grasp some of the more advanced techniques for avoiding reflec= tions, handling the really difficult tracks or the AdjustTrack module.=C2= =A0


Imagineer is always looking for difficult trackin= g shots to use for tutorials and testing, so if you have any - please let m= e know.=C2=A0

Cheers,
Ross

--=C2=A0
Ross Shain
= Chief Marketing Officer
Imagineer Systems - developers of=C2=A0mocha<= /b>=C2=A0planar tracking and visual effects tools.

www.imagineersystems.com= =C2=A0


On 2 June 2014 10:40, Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion= .tv> wrote:

We use small tracking target stickers at ea= ch corner of the screen and mocha takes care of the rest. How experienced a= re you with mocha? Even the most difficult tracks can be accomplished manua= lly but there are a lot of ways to do it you may not know about. There are = some great advanced tuts online even pros could learn from.

We never use green because as you said it blocks reflections= , but more importantly you can get green spill on the actors that is harder= to manage.

On Jun 2, 2014 10:28 AM, "Roei Tzoref"= <AE-List@m= edia-motion.tv> wrote:
Hey y'all

I recently tracked different ki= nd of Iphone and Ipads screen replacements
with different methods= , and cant be sure whats the optimal way of preparing the shoot.

my question is:
do you use green on iphone and = ipads where=C2=A0good reflections are needed to sell the shot?

my considerations are:
on one hand:
with green sticker -> better track and maybe easier roto, but you do hav= e to remove it
and no reflections.

on th= e other hand:
without green sticker -> more rotoscoping, somet= imes difficult track, but good reflections.

the way I decided doing it was with no green beca= use mocha can track just with
the shapes and proportions and the = green I get usually its just a pain to remove
and although helps = me with the track, I do have to remove it and replace it. and
usually it doesn't help me with keying it because the shot is lit = for the main action
and not the green inside. the problem is I go= t a shot with bright sun behind
and the track was very hard. a gr= een would have at least help with the shear shift.

what do you recommend as the best course of action for = iphones and ipads
and GUI screens in general (where you need the = reflections)?

thanks




<= /div>
--
Ross Shain
Chief Marketing Officer
Imagineer Systems - de= velopers of mocha planar tracking and visual effects tools.

www.imagi= neersystems.com
Phone: +1.646.298.6458 = | Fax: 646.808.0831 | Email: rosss@imagineersystems.com

Find us online:
Facebook | Twitter | YouTube=C2=A0| Vimeo




--
__________________= ___________
VFX & Motion G= raphic Artist
teddygage dot com



--
Eric D. Kirk |=C2=A0Kirk= Productions
Hidden in the Woods | VFX
The Night Visitor | VFX
=C2=A0


--001a113ab2ecb6c65304faedd3a0--