From: "Trish Meyer (Lists)" Received: from cri.crishdesign.com ([198.57.142.178] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5501791 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 19:15:11 +0200 Received: from 97-123-24-175.albq.qwest.net ([97.123.24.175]:55277 helo=[192.168.0.14]) by cri.crishdesign.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WwE1N-0000d7-Jt; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 11:15:09 -0600 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1A0E862E-3291-41C1-B13C-FAD1B92523A0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: [AE] AE's rendering order - Collapse Transformations In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 11:14:48 -0600 Message-Id: <660B962A-1338-4B11-BEAF-FBC8B545AD30@crishdesign.com> References: To: "After Effects Mail List" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cri.crishdesign.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - media-motion.tv X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - crishdesign.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cri.crishdesign.com: authenticated_id: trish_lists@crishdesign.com --Apple-Mail=_1A0E862E-3291-41C1-B13C-FAD1B92523A0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Was "Layered Graphics Smart Import" thread On Jun 11, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > Here's a question for you - say I have three layers side-by-side in a = 3D flythrough scene. I want to group them together as a unit so they = move together. I have two options: either I pre-compose them with "leave = transforms in composition" grayed out, so that I have to turn on the = collapse transforms button on the precomp to bring them back into the = main comp's 3D space. Or, I have to precompose without the collapse = transforms, turn on the precomp's 3D switch, then have to bring the = precomp back to the correct coords manually. And if I do the former = method, that precomp is itself a 2D comp, so I can't manipulate the = layers together in 3D space. I have to go into the precomp and change = the layer's z-position without any reference to the master scene. If I = then proceed to turn the 3D switch back on for the collapsed precomp in = the main comp, the coords are all messed up and anchor point is in the = wrong place. I'm sure this is totally confusing but I don't know how to = better explain it. >=20 > Am I missing something? I think basically I'm wondering why the "leave = transforms in current comp" button is unavailable when selecting and = precomping multiple layers. Sometimes I just want to precomp as a method = of grouping layers together instead of parenting, while leaving 3d axis = controls and coords in the master comp.=20 >=20 What you are trying to do isn't possible.=20 One way of understanding the Precompose choices is like this: Leave all attributes =3D create new Precomp's size based on the size and = duration of the single layer you are precomposing. The new Precomp has = default attributes for Transform, and the current attributes (Mask, FX, = Transform) remain in the main comp. Move all attributes =3D create new Precomp based on the size and = duration of the current comp. The resulting nested layer in the current = comp has default attributes for Transform. Any existing Mask, FX and = Transform and moved to the Precomp. When you precompose multiple layers, there is no way to create the new = comp based on the attributes of a single layer, so you have to choose = Move All Attributions. Attributes also include the relationship = between one layer and another so In and Out points and blend modes are = important to move too. And obviously, keyframes and fx also have to be = moved.=20 (Note that the frame rate should follow the same principle for Leave = All, but it seems to be broken in the past few versions, so now I always = check the new Precomp if the frame rate of the source is difference than = the current file and see if it's important which frame rate is used.) The default is to have Collapse Transformations (the "sunburst") turned = Off in the main comp. So when the main comp renders that nested precomp = layer, it tells the Precomp to render all the layers inside it (from the = bottom up) and produce a final "flattened" 2D image that is then passed = thru to the main comp. The main comp can transform this flat 2D image in = 3D if you turn on the 3D layer switch - but it's really only able to = swivel and tilt a flat 2D image! And because it is a normal 2D image, = you are free to apply FX and blending modes to it. This flat 2D image = is the same size as the Precomp, and any pixels on the pasteboard are = "cropped" off (this is the "crop layers to comp size" step at the end of = the render order). =20 But you do have the choice whether the individual layers in the precomp = are "flattened" and "cropped" at the end of the Precomp's rendering = order, before it passes thru to the main comp. If you turn ON the = Collapse switch, you can get AE to bypass those two steps. The result? = The nested layer now starts to behave just like a null object parent! = Also Enable the 3D switch, and you can Transform the layer in 3D just as = if the layers in the Precomp were children of this "null" parent. Rather = than transforming a 2D image, it's now applying its Transformation = values to the layers in the Precomp individually. And because the = transformation values are being added together and the layer resampled = once, the quality is maintained (i.e., if the layer is scaled down 50% = in the Precomp, the main comp can scale it back up to 200% and get back = the original resolution). =20 Of course, because the nested "layer" is essentially behaving like a = null object parent, you can't apply FX or blend modes to the nested = Precomp when Collapse is on. On the other hand, any blend modes applied = to the individual layers in the Precomp are passed thru to the main = comp.=20 With Collapse On, you'll also see that any pixels on the pasteboard in = the Precomp are still available in the main comp, because the "crop to = comp size" step was skipped (you can fix that by making full frame track = mattes in the Precomp if that's a real issue). If you start thinking of the nested layer as really a "null object = parent" where the children are in the Precomp, the Collapse = Transformations feature starts to make more sense. In other words, when you turn On the Collapse Transformations button for = the nested layer in the main comp, you are essentially creating the same = rendering hierarchy that you would have gotten had you simply NOT = precomposed and - created a New Null - parented the layers to the Null - made the children Shy (to hide them from the timeline) (yes, a folder = structure like PS has would be great=85) - use the null to apply Transformations to the group - if I want to see the children separately, you can make a selection = group with labels and so on My rule of thumb is that if I don't want to flatten the layers, I'll use = a Null object parenting hierarchy and keep everything in one comp. It's = easier, and you don't have the weirdness that happens when you open the = Precomp and the layers are shown without the camera and lights (although = Custom Views can help there).=20 No doubt Todd will jump in if anything has changed recently that changes = stuff under the hood!=20 Trish --Apple-Mail=_1A0E862E-3291-41C1-B13C-FAD1B92523A0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Was = "Layered Graphics Smart Import" thread

On Jun 11, = 2014, at 2:48 PM, Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:

Here's a question for you - say I have = three layers side-by-side in a 3D flythrough scene. I want to group them = together as a unit so they move together. I have two options: either I = pre-compose them with "leave transforms in composition" grayed out, so = that I have to turn on the collapse transforms button on the precomp to = bring them back into the main comp's 3D space. Or, I have to precompose = without the collapse transforms, turn on the precomp's 3D switch, then = have to bring the precomp back to the correct coords manually. And if I = do the former method, that precomp is itself a 2D comp, so I can't = manipulate the layers together in 3D space. I have to go into the = precomp and change the layer's z-position without any reference to the = master scene. If I then proceed to turn the 3D switch back on for the = collapsed precomp in the main comp, the coords are all messed up and = anchor point is in the wrong place. I'm sure this is totally confusing = but I don't know how to better explain it.

Am I missing something? I think basically I'm wondering = why the "leave transforms in current comp" button is unavailable when = selecting and precomping multiple layers. Sometimes I just want to = precomp as a method of grouping layers together instead of parenting, = while leaving 3d axis controls and coords in the master = comp. 


What you are = trying to do isn't possible. 

One way of = understanding the Precompose choices is like = this:

Leave all attributes =3D create new = Precomp's size based on the size and duration of the single layer you = are precomposing. The new Precomp has default attributes for Transform, = and the current attributes (Mask, FX, Transform) remain in the main = comp.

Move all attributes =3D create new = Precomp based on the size and duration of the current comp. The = resulting nested layer in the current comp has default attributes for = Transform.  Any existing Mask, FX and Transform and moved to the = Precomp.

When you precompose multiple = layers, there is no way to create the new comp based on the attributes = of a single layer, so you have to choose Move All Attributions. =   Attributes also include the relationship between one layer = and another so In and Out points and blend modes are important to move = too. And obviously, keyframes and fx also have to be = moved. 

(Note that the frame rate should = follow the same principle for Leave All, but it seems to be broken in = the past few versions, so now I always check the new Precomp if the = frame rate of the source is difference than the current file and see if = it's important which frame rate is used.)

The = default is to have Collapse Transformations (the "sunburst") = turned Off in the main comp. So when the main comp renders that = nested precomp layer, it tells the Precomp to render all the layers = inside it (from the bottom up) and produce a final "flattened" 2D image = that is then passed thru to the main comp. The main comp can transform = this flat 2D image in 3D if you turn on the 3D layer switch - but it's = really only able to swivel and tilt a flat 2D image! And because it = is a normal 2D image, you are free to apply FX and blending modes to it. =  This flat 2D image is the same size as the Precomp, and any pixels = on the pasteboard are "cropped" off (this is the "crop layers to comp = size" step at the end of the render order). =  

But you do have the choice whether the = individual layers in the precomp are "flattened" and "cropped" at the = end of the Precomp's rendering order, before it passes thru to the main = comp. If you turn ON the Collapse switch, you can get AE to = bypass those two steps. The result? The nested layer now starts = to behave just like a null object parent! Also Enable the 3D switch, and = you can Transform the layer in 3D just as if the layers in the Precomp = were children of this "null" parent. Rather than transforming a 2D = image, it's now applying its Transformation values to the layers in the = Precomp individually. And because the transformation values are being = added together and the layer resampled once, the quality is maintained = (i.e., if the layer is scaled down 50% in the Precomp, the main comp can = scale it back up to 200% and get back the original resolution). =   

Of course, because the nested = "layer" is essentially behaving like a null object parent, you can't = apply FX or blend modes to the nested Precomp when Collapse is on. On = the other hand, any blend modes applied to the individual layers in the = Precomp are passed thru to the main = comp. 

With Collapse On, you'll also see = that any pixels on the pasteboard in the Precomp are still available in = the main comp, because the "crop to comp size" step was skipped (you can = fix that by making full frame track mattes in the Precomp if that's a = real issue).

If you start thinking of the = nested layer as really a "null object parent" where the children are in = the Precomp, the Collapse Transformations feature starts to make more = sense.

In other words, when you turn On the = Collapse Transformations button for the nested layer in the main comp, = you are essentially creating the same rendering hierarchy that you would = have gotten had you simply NOT precomposed and
- created a New = Null
- parented the layers to the Null
- made the = children Shy (to hide them from the timeline) (yes, a folder structure = like PS has would be great=85)
- use the null to apply = Transformations to the group
- if I want to see the children = separately, you can make a selection group with labels and so = on

My rule of thumb is that if I don't want to = flatten the layers, I'll use a Null object parenting hierarchy and keep = everything in one comp. It's easier, and you don't have the weirdness = that happens when you open the Precomp and the layers are shown without = the camera and lights (although Custom Views can help = there). 

No doubt Todd will jump in if = anything has changed recently that changes stuff under the = hood! 

Trish

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