From: "Teddy Gage" Received: from mail-yk0-f171.google.com ([209.85.160.171] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5501871 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 21:17:14 +0200 Received: by mail-yk0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 200so3523382ykr.16 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=opSmOjZKQkzTmaGC/4h/kXzcY4XMFrzmpe2gFE6893A=; b=rmVlYJJuiz/dsJ8SVn1+ntQYdcSCaQafOytzqpUJlp0Wk1jqw+rq93/DwPDRxiJfIL PQOAF7uk95PIP+27hzytgskhW6lEyh8R4SzDCNARcrsLbcQvw+gjVl5fpaqxpOBi+I2j zj/mIEsD1vfnC8wM2YRBB/mabIK+C2ecT9bxHonkuHcfZ/wn2nKeqZGXgz1dcuteNH0R SJssDCN7eV8QUCawozLg5aOXFK3e70E2n5Bd1R9Dy18dUmMWM1qAOZtM0QAkojr2UGMD QY+u/xZPpVbu4llEul11p6cE1tQBlsAhLnc2DdT8rW9DNdikc8B769ECNhpVNKdhB9ZS alYQ== X-Received: by 10.236.66.139 with SMTP id h11mr27589227yhd.30.1402859833379; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:17:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.170.76.134 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 15:16:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] AE's rendering order - Collapse Transformations To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133cb6c09d2ef04fbe4c24d --001a1133cb6c09d2ef04fbe4c24d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trish this is amazing, thank you! >Also Enable the 3D switch, and you can Transform the layer in 3D just as if the layers in the Precomp were children of this "null" parent. Rather than transforming a 2D image, it's now applying its Transformation values to the layers in the Precomp individually. This is what I was having issues with. I went back and tried to do the same thing I was trying before and now it works. Not sure what I was doing wrong, but previously, when I would turn on collapse transforms AND the 3D switch, the layers were jumping around in 3D space. And then I think I was trying to control the sublayer position in z space using the 2D, collapsed precomp and it was moving as you said, like a 3D object parented to a 2D null. I've been working in AE for over ten years and it's still confusing! (taught myself with Creating Motion Graphics 2nd edition of course) Great explanation. -TG On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Trish Meyer (Lists) < AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote: > Was "Layered Graphics Smart Import" thread > > On Jun 11, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Teddy Gage wrote: > > Here's a question for you - say I have three layers side-by-side in a 3D > flythrough scene. I want to group them together as a unit so they move > together. I have two options: either I pre-compose them with "leave > transforms in composition" grayed out, so that I have to turn on the > collapse transforms button on the precomp to bring them back into the mai= n > comp's 3D space. Or, I have to precompose without the collapse transforms= , > turn on the precomp's 3D switch, then have to bring the precomp back to t= he > correct coords manually. And if I do the former method, that precomp is > itself a 2D comp, so I can't manipulate the layers together in 3D space. = I > have to go into the precomp and change the layer's z-position without any > reference to the master scene. If I then proceed to turn the 3D switch ba= ck > on for the collapsed precomp in the main comp, the coords are all messed = up > and anchor point is in the wrong place. I'm sure this is totally confusin= g > but I don't know how to better explain it. > > Am I missing something? I think basically I'm wondering why the "leave > transforms in current comp" button is unavailable when selecting and > precomping multiple layers. Sometimes I just want to precomp as a method = of > grouping layers together instead of parenting, while leaving 3d axis > controls and coords in the master comp. > > > What you are trying to do isn't possible. > > One way of understanding the Precompose choices is like this: > > Leave all attributes =3D create new Precomp's size based on the size and > duration of the single layer you are precomposing. The new Precomp has > default attributes for Transform, and the current attributes (Mask, FX, > Transform) remain in the main comp. > > Move all attributes =3D create new Precomp based on the size and duration= of > the *current* comp. The resulting nested layer in the current comp has > default attributes for Transform. Any existing Mask, FX and Transform an= d > moved to the Precomp. > > When you precompose *multiple* layers, there is no way to create the new > comp based on the attributes of a *single* layer, so you have to choose > Move All Attributions. Attributes also include the relationship between > one layer and another so In and Out points and blend modes are important = to > move too. And obviously, keyframes and fx also have to be moved. > > (Note that the frame rate should follow the same principle for Leave All, > but it seems to be broken in the past few versions, so now I always check > the new Precomp if the frame rate of the source is difference than the > current file and see if it's important which frame rate is used.) > > The *default* is to have Collapse Transformations (the "sunburst") turned > *Off* in the main comp. So when the main comp renders that nested precomp > layer, it tells the Precomp to render all the layers inside it (from the > bottom up) and produce a final "flattened" 2D image that is then passed > thru to the main comp. The main comp can transform this flat 2D image in = 3D > if you turn on the 3D layer switch - but it's really only able to swivel > and tilt a flat 2D image! And because it is a normal 2D image, you are fr= ee > to apply FX and blending modes to it. This flat 2D image is the same siz= e > as the Precomp, and any pixels on the pasteboard are "cropped" off (this = is > the "crop layers to comp size" step at the end of the render order). > > But you do have the choice whether the individual layers in the precomp > are "flattened" and "cropped" at the end of the Precomp's rendering order= , > before it passes thru to the main comp. If you turn ON the Collapse switc= h, > you can get AE to *bypass* those two steps. The result? The nested layer > now starts to behave just like a null object parent! Also Enable the 3D > switch, and you can Transform the layer in 3D just as if the layers in th= e > Precomp were children of this "null" parent. Rather than transforming a 2= D > image, it's now applying its Transformation values to the layers in the > Precomp individually. And because the transformation values are being add= ed > together and the layer resampled once, the quality is maintained (i.e., i= f > the layer is scaled down 50% in the Precomp, the main comp can scale it > back up to 200% and get back the original resolution). > > Of course, because the nested "layer" is essentially behaving like a null > object parent, you can't apply FX or blend modes to the nested Precomp wh= en > Collapse is on. On the other hand, any blend modes applied to the > individual layers in the Precomp are passed thru to the main comp. > > With Collapse On, you'll also see that any pixels on the pasteboard in th= e > Precomp are still available in the main comp, because the "crop to comp > size" step was skipped (you can fix that by making full frame track matte= s > in the Precomp if that's a real issue). > > If you start thinking of the nested layer as really a "null object parent= " > where the children are in the Precomp, the Collapse Transformations featu= re > starts to make more sense. > > In other words, when you turn On the Collapse Transformations button for > the nested layer in the main comp, you are essentially creating the same > rendering hierarchy that you would have gotten had you simply NOT > precomposed and > - created a New Null > - parented the layers to the Null > - made the children Shy (to hide them from the timeline) (yes, a folder > structure like PS has would be great=E2=80=A6) > - use the null to apply Transformations to the group > - if I want to see the children separately, you can make a selection grou= p > with labels and so on > > My rule of thumb is that if I don't want to flatten the layers, I'll use = a > Null object parenting hierarchy and keep everything in one comp. It's > easier, and you don't have the weirdness that happens when you open the > Precomp and the layers are shown without the camera and lights (although > Custom Views can help there). > > No doubt Todd will jump in if anything has changed recently that changes > stuff under the hood! > > Trish > > --=20 _____________________________ VFX & Motion Graphic Artist teddygage dot com --001a1133cb6c09d2ef04fbe4c24d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Trish this is amazing, thank you!

><= span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Also Enable the = 3D switch, and you can Transform the layer in 3D just as if the layers in t= he Precomp were children of this "null" parent. Rather than trans= forming a 2D image, it's now applying its Transformation values to the = layers in the Precomp individually.

Thi= s is what I was having issues with. I went back and tried to do the same th= ing I was trying before and now it works. Not sure what I was doing wrong, = but previously, when I would turn on collapse transforms AND the 3D switch,= the layers were jumping around in 3D space. And then I think I was trying = to control the sublayer position in z space using the 2D, collapsed precomp= and it was moving as you said, like a 3D object parented to a 2D null. I&#= 39;ve been working in AE for over ten years and it's still confusing! (= taught myself with Creating Motion Graphics 2nd edition of course) Great ex= planation.
-TG=

=


On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Trish Meyer (Lists) <= AE-List@media-= motion.tv> wrote:
Was "Layered Graphics Smart Import= " thread

On Jun 11, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Teddy Gage <= ;AE-List@media= -motion.tv> wrote:

Here's a question for yo= u - say I have three layers side-by-side in a 3D flythrough scene. I want t= o group them together as a unit so they move together. I have two options: = either I pre-compose them with "leave transforms in composition" = grayed out, so that I have to turn on the collapse transforms button on the= precomp to bring them back into the main comp's 3D space. Or, I have t= o precompose without the collapse transforms, turn on the precomp's 3D = switch, then have to bring the precomp back to the correct coords manually.= And if I do the former method, that precomp is itself a 2D comp, so I can&= #39;t manipulate the layers together in 3D space. I have to go into the pre= comp and change the layer's z-position without any reference to the mas= ter scene. If I then proceed to turn the 3D switch back on for the collapse= d precomp in the main comp, the coords are all messed up and anchor point i= s in the wrong place. I'm sure this is totally confusing but I don'= t know how to better explain it.

Am I missing something? I think basically I'm wondering = why the "leave transforms in current comp" button is unavailable = when selecting and precomping multiple layers. Sometimes I just want to pre= comp as a method of grouping layers together instead of parenting, while le= aving 3d axis controls and coords in the master comp.=C2=A0


What= you are trying to do isn't possible.=C2=A0

On= e way of understanding the Precompose choices is like this:

<= /div>
Leave all attributes =3D create new Precomp's size based on the si= ze and duration of the single layer you are precomposing. The new Precomp h= as default attributes for Transform, and the current attributes (Mask, FX, = Transform) remain in the main comp.

Move all attributes =3D create new Precomp based on the= size and duration of the current comp. The resulting nested layer i= n the current comp has default attributes for Transform. =C2=A0Any existing= Mask, FX and Transform and moved to the Precomp.

When you precompose multiple layers, there is no= way to create the new comp based on the attributes of a single laye= r, so you have to choose Move All Attributions. =C2=A0=C2=A0Attributes also= include the relationship between one layer and another so In and Out point= s and blend modes are important to move too. And obviously, keyframes and f= x also have to be moved.=C2=A0

(Note that the frame rate should follow the same princi= ple for Leave All, but it seems to be broken in the past few versions, so n= ow I always check the new Precomp if the frame rate of the source is differ= ence than the current file and see if it's important which frame rate i= s used.)

The default is to have Collapse Transformations = (the "sunburst") turned Off in the main comp. So when the = main comp renders that nested precomp layer, it tells=C2=A0the Precomp to r= ender all the layers inside it (from the bottom up) and produce a final &qu= ot;flattened" 2D image that is then passed thru to the main comp. The = main comp can transform this flat 2D image in 3D if you turn on the 3D laye= r switch - but it's really only able to swivel and tilt a flat 2D image= !=C2=A0And because it is a normal 2D image, you are free to apply FX and bl= ending modes to it. =C2=A0This flat 2D image is the same size as the Precom= p, and any pixels on the pasteboard are "cropped" off (this is th= e "crop layers to comp size" step at the end of the render order)= . =C2=A0

But you do have the choice whether the individual layer= s in the precomp are "flattened" and "cropped" at the e= nd of the Precomp's rendering order, before it passes thru to the main = comp. If you turn ON the Collapse switch, you can get AE to bypass t= hose two steps. The result? The nested layer now starts to behave just like= a null object parent! Also Enable the 3D switch, and you can Transform the= layer in 3D just as if the layers in the Precomp were children of this &qu= ot;null" parent. Rather than transforming a 2D image, it's now app= lying its Transformation values to the layers in the Precomp individually. = And because the transformation values are being added together and the laye= r resampled once, the quality is maintained (i.e., if the layer is scaled d= own 50% in the Precomp, the main comp can scale it back up to 200% and get = back the original resolution). =C2=A0=C2=A0

Of course, because the nested "layer" is esse= ntially behaving like a null object parent, you can't apply FX or blend= modes to the nested Precomp when Collapse is on. On the other hand, any bl= end modes applied to the individual layers in the Precomp are passed thru t= o the main comp.=C2=A0

With Collapse On, you'll also see that any pixels o= n the pasteboard in the Precomp are still available in the main comp, becau= se the "crop to comp size" step was skipped (you can fix that by = making full frame track mattes in the Precomp if that's a real issue).<= /div>

If you start thinking of the nested layer as really a &= quot;null object parent" where the children are in the Precomp, the Co= llapse Transformations feature starts to make more sense.

In other words, when you turn On the Collapse Transformations bu= tton for the nested layer in the main comp, you are essentially creating th= e same rendering hierarchy that you would have gotten had you simply NOT pr= ecomposed and
- created a New Null
- parented the layers to the Null
=
- made the children Shy (to hide them from the timeline) (yes, a folde= r structure like PS has would be great=E2=80=A6)
- use the null t= o apply Transformations to the group
- if I want to see the children separately, you can make a selection g= roup with labels and so on

My rule of thumb is tha= t if I don't want to flatten the layers, I'll use a Null object par= enting hierarchy and keep everything in one comp. It's easier, and you = don't have the weirdness that happens when you open the Precomp and the= layers are shown without the camera and lights (although Custom Views can = help there).=C2=A0

No doubt Todd will jump in if anything has changed rece= ntly that changes stuff under the hood!=C2=A0
<= font color=3D"#888888">

Trish




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_____________________________
=
VFX & Motion Graphic Artist
teddygage dot com
--001a1133cb6c09d2ef04fbe4c24d--