From: "Carey Dissmore" Received: from mail-ig0-f172.google.com ([209.85.213.172] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5514398 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sat, 28 Jun 2014 15:12:23 +0200 Received: by mail-ig0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hn18so2904489igb.5 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2014 06:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-type:message-id:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=NYZFcrTcI/smv7uWwJyUBhXPPKr7BN6vucH1ck+frFs=; b=aV5i4d3qPdkRFGmBrUk4G7ohKSFnaNkGMDeJWNulU64oDcp07ZDD1WHNbO1Xi5aZXF ug5bQPPGhXda2pSFdYZ4ah3PzNsH2UGGn22l7u6FiY0G1Dsj3qI98wB6CH0FPvTyUKPg MEfq7IDOgNzEjvlw1+zzWzaS/BruhKDlZf3rDWoI/VmCEqalfq99RAhiNqCQHPSGZMTr QRcdDmk+ihKv/0eofjjYXCsmwUUzStXSgQfkXChsu9q5s37xB85QYmDqJvA8hFC/wIns fL9umwnPiYahzlWHu2I9U3B3W3fNhYzgMwem1RuC/454qTicpCX0eoZXN1WP75tZyzKa x8DA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlgQWDsHfgUdcitRPRyiy0uuEeUNr1dSorX2N8BY2ka/JeOpHB+ry48UGlA6LlKa37Al++k X-Received: by 10.43.7.10 with SMTP id om10mr2291492icb.66.1403961141622; Sat, 28 Jun 2014 06:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.10] (c-24-118-184-204.hsd1.mn.comcast.net. [24.118.184.204]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b2sm6622534igg.1.2014.06.28.06.12.19 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Jun 2014 06:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_14D73254-EFBF-4BE2-9B3F-75DF2A80AEB3" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Depreciated output formats gone completely in AE 2014 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:12:18 -0500 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) --Apple-Mail=_14D73254-EFBF-4BE2-9B3F-75DF2A80AEB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hi Gang, Just chiming in with another perspective here. I=92ve seen a same/similar slide at numerous Adobe presentations in many = cities, at many conferences, etc. over the past 3 years or so. That has = shown that Adobe=92s team are viewing their production-related apps as a = modified hub-and-spoke model, or ecosystem, with PPro and Media Encoder = at the center of that workflow. AE, Audition, Speedgrade and other apps = are on the spokes feeding that hub. Since the move to CC, where everyone = gets everything, this only makes more sense to take a suite-integrated = approach.=20 This model serves someone like myself very well (I typically integrate = editorial and mograph all day), as it=92s been my model to always work = at the highest production codecs and resolutions in AE, then finish from = the NLE (all audio in AE treated as =93scratch=94) for something like 17 = or 18 years now (OMG!). The move to push more things to AME is = understandable, and now that CUDA effects are supported in it, some of = the penalties are removed. (Dynamic link factors in there as = appropriate.) But having said all of that, I do understand that there are some = artists, many of whom are right here in this community, who just live in = AE all day every day and want it to be their finishing platform, but = also the place where they dump out client approvals right from the = render queue. This architectural move creates an extra step for someone = like that...but overall I think we will all be better served by there = being essentially one robust codebase for Adobe to maintain for these = functions. What happens from a software development side (like with = Mediacore) is that that codebase ends up getting transplanted into each = individual application, where it then has to be modified to hook in. At = that point it is another instance of that same/similar codebase and will = inevitably =93fork=94 in it=92s development from the main. Then begins = the work of reconciling feature changes, updates and fixes across = numerous instances of the codebase that essentially duplicate = functionality. It can really rack up the coding/development/QA hours = with diminishing returns on user benefit.=20 But=85one thing I really want to speak up for is the tremendous value of = having a render history stored within the AEP. I would like to see a = solution that funnels this data back into the AEP and auto-saves it = post-render. Back in the Gridiron X-Factor/Nucleo days they had this = functionality happening (although it was a little clunky=97it worked).=20= All the best, Carey On Jun 28, 2014, at 12:20 AM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: > > to be a broken record, h.264 is NOT just web video. its capable of = iFrame, deep color and high bit rates. please see = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264 for a starter. > =20 > Not arguing there =96 but not aware of any Adobe or common NLE etc. = encoders that support 10-bit iframe 444 H.264 and certainly not the = deprecated AE format unless I was totally missing something. > =20 > But the larger issue here is that h.264 vs say ProRes 4444 is = analogous to a DCDM vs a DCP in digital cinema. DCP is not your master, = it=92s your distribution master. It=92s like keeping your audio masters = at 320KB CBR MP3. Just not smart workflow/archiving in my view. > =20 > stephen van vuuren > 336.202.4777 > =20 > http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ > http://www.sv2dcp.com/ > http://www.sv2studios.com/ > =20 > A film is =96 or should be =96 more like music than like fiction. It = should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=92s = behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. > =96Stanley Kubrick > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv]=20 > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 12:09 AM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Depreciated output formats gone completely in AE = 2014 > =20 > to be a broken record, h.264 is NOT just web video. its capable of = iFrame, deep color and high bit rates. please see = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264 for a starter. > =20 > then realize panasonic P2 cameras record AVCintra 100 and 200 mbit 10 = bit, basically equal to ProRes 422 and HQ. HDcam SR 440mbit is based on = h.264 > =20 > its a perfectly good delivery format if you use the higher end specs > =20 > S > =20 > On Jun 26, 2014, at 2:11 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I will chime in that on some of my boxes I had stopped using AE for = H.264 due to crashes with export and started using AME and never had an = issue or crash. > =20 > The one downside to AME is not having an export history saved with the = project =96 not sure if that is even possible. > =20 > But h.264 as a final for clients? I can=92t imagine doing that. ProRes = 422 or Avid is about as uncompressed I would ever deliver. H.264 is just = a proof/web format as it just won=92t holdup to much after that. > =20 > stephen van vuuren > 336.202.4777 > =20 > http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ > http://www.sv2dcp.com/ > http://www.sv2studios.com/ > =20 > A film is =96 or should be =96 more like music than like fiction. It = should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=92s = behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. > =96Stanley Kubrick > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv]=20 > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 2:45 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Depreciated output formats gone completely in AE = 2014 > =20 > I can vouch for this exact approach. Here=92s a sample from last = weekend, exported via AME using the Vimeo 1080p 29.97 preset. > =20 > https://vimeo.com/98827113 > =20 > Brian >=20 >=20 >=20 > You're asking for output directly from After Effects, but my answer is = to use the Vimeo encoding presets in Adobe Media Encoder. > =20 > Just render and export a losslessly encoded master from After Effects = into a watch folder that AME is monitoring, and let AME create the Vimeo = file. > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] > =20 > What is a better alternative than .MOV H.264 for optimal qualityute = for upload to Vimeo? > =20 > Requirements: 24 fps, 1080p, 44kHz Stereo, size < 200 Mb per 60 sec of = video, direct render from AE output. --Apple-Mail=_14D73254-EFBF-4BE2-9B3F-75DF2A80AEB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Hi = Gang,

Just chiming in with another perspective = here.
I=92ve seen a same/similar slide at numerous Adobe = presentations in many cities, at many conferences, etc. over the past 3 = years or so. That has shown that Adobe=92s team are viewing their = production-related apps as a modified hub-and-spoke model, or ecosystem, = with PPro and Media Encoder at the center of that workflow. AE, = Audition, Speedgrade and other apps are on the spokes feeding that hub. = Since the move to CC, where everyone gets everything, this only makes = more sense to take a suite-integrated = approach. 

This model serves someone like = myself very well (I typically integrate editorial and mograph all day), = as it=92s been my model to always work at the highest production codecs = and resolutions in AE, then finish from the NLE (all audio in AE treated = as =93scratch=94) for something like 17 or 18 years now (OMG!). =  The move to push more things to AME is understandable, and now = that CUDA effects are supported in it, some of the penalties are = removed. (Dynamic link factors in there as = appropriate.)

But having said all of that, I do = understand that there are some artists, many of whom are right here in = this community, who just live in AE all day every day and want it to be = their finishing platform, but also the place where they dump out client = approvals right from the render queue. This architectural move creates = an extra step for someone like that...but overall I think we will all be = better served by there being essentially one robust codebase for Adobe = to maintain for these functions. What happens from a software = development side (like with Mediacore) is that that codebase ends up = getting transplanted into each individual application, where it then has = to be modified to hook in. At that point it is another instance of that = same/similar codebase and will inevitably =93fork=94 in it=92s = development from the main. Then begins the work of reconciling feature = changes, updates and fixes across numerous instances of the codebase = that essentially duplicate functionality. It can really rack up the = coding/development/QA hours with diminishing returns on user = benefit. 

But=85one thing I really want to = speak up for is the tremendous value of having a render history stored = within the AEP. I would like to see a solution that funnels this data = back into the AEP and auto-saves it post-render. Back in the Gridiron = X-Factor/Nucleo days they had this functionality happening (although it = was a little clunky=97it worked). 

All the = best,
Carey

On Jun 28, = 2014, at 12:20 AM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:

> to be a broken record, = h.264 is NOT just web video. its capable of iFrame, deep color and high = bit rates. please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264 for a = starter.
 
Not arguing there =96 but not aware of any Adobe or = common NLE etc. encoders that support 10-bit iframe 444 H.264 and = certainly not the deprecated AE format unless I was totally missing = something.
 
But the larger issue here is that h.264 vs say ProRes = 4444 is analogous to a DCDM vs a DCP in digital cinema. DCP is not your = master, it=92s your distribution master. It=92s like keeping your audio = masters at 320KB CBR MP3. Just not smart workflow/archiving in my = view.
 
A film is =96 or should be =96 more like music than = like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The = theme, what=92s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes = later.
=96Stanley = Kubrick
 
From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] 
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 = 12:09 AM
To: After Effects Mail = List
Subject: Re: [AE] Depreciated output = formats gone completely in AE = 2014
 
to be a broken = record, h.264 is NOT just web video. its capable of iFrame, deep color = and high bit rates. please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264 for a = starter.
 
then = realize panasonic P2 cameras record AVCintra 100 and 200 mbit 10 bit, = basically equal to ProRes 422 and HQ. HDcam SR 440mbit is based on = h.264
 
its a = perfectly good delivery format if you use the higher end = specs
 
S
 
On = Jun 26, 2014, at 2:11 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:


I will chime in that on some of my boxes I had = stopped using AE for H.264 due to crashes with export and started using = AME and never had an issue or = crash.
 
The one downside to AME = is not having an export history saved with the project =96 not sure if = that is even possible.
 
But h.264 as a final for clients? = I can=92t imagine doing that. ProRes 422 or Avid is about as = uncompressed I would ever deliver. H.264 is just a proof/web format as = it just won=92t holdup to much after = that.
 
stephen van = vuuren
336.202.4777
 
 
A film is =96 or should be =96 = more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods = and feelings. The theme, what=92s behind the emotion, the meaning, all = that comes later.
=96Stanley = Kubrick
 
From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] 
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 = 2:45 PM
To: After Effects Mail = List
Subject: Re: [AE] Depreciated output = formats gone completely in AE = 2014
 
I can = vouch for this exact approach. Here=92s a sample from last weekend, = exported via AME using the Vimeo 1080p 29.97 = preset.
 
=
 
Brian



You're asking for output directly = from After Effects, but my answer is to use the Vimeo encoding presets = in Adobe Media Encoder.
 
Just render and export a = losslessly encoded master from After Effects into a watch folder that = AME is monitoring, and let AME create the Vimeo = file.
 
 
From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv]
 
What is a better alternative than .MOV H.264 for optimal = qualityute for upload to Vimeo?
 
Requirements: 24 fps, 1080p, 44kHz Stereo, size < 200 Mb = per 60 sec of video, direct render from AE = output.

= --Apple-Mail=_14D73254-EFBF-4BE2-9B3F-75DF2A80AEB3--