From: "Robert Kjettrup" Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com ([209.85.220.43] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5562591 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 19:28:38 +0200 Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id et14so12854353pad.2 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=U7ecuqIJXd+/kg06VZJ3KacXioldGJ57FQg7dNLoYuI=; b=c3wPgVqlqBFjModuUVD3b4hyX2UigcKxiNxrapHoHZbEelBSJ9fV5MFnaIo6nYPHLA 7ttaYES+A54VGRWZ0PFFROcuarvP6uhyyvM8JsS5gqnaZ9ojLJOAWAflSEz6DwbE9KVF geefaby8MeM5ZfEyYNsl5TW90rG5D8tGDgycsW8cwmtXvvkgB8AycX/TWShF4MrHV/bp ErtbcWRTzkQi3SVQRdbNt1BqhsEB1WEMZ8CfGKb+yvJEFlYU38L1o6XXibuNR9C97VUr /QDzk2Kha8O4Cr/3YdXvmhLAXZOE4BJzxvwcGYyml8HA619j9h1HoACgiZHn4Vxl0uNt Wl4g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm5aHTpg6ZAdRqV4SFj9WGlYhZuoHJGOnGnH90Z8a0/7+OKUQnbGUumchFY3NaMzZG9b42t X-Received: by 10.68.183.68 with SMTP id ek4mr41546222pbc.54.1409592517853; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:28:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.165.104 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:28:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 19:28:17 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] H264 Encoding and grain issues and Basic Encoding Survey To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d33cc4e1de905020455fc --047d7b5d33cc4e1de905020455fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If you want to keep the grain structure you will have to accept bigger filesizes, thats just how it works... many small changing details every frame like grain and noise is just hard for an encoder. The good thing about Constant Quality settings are that you can predict how it will look... but not how much the filesize will be. On the other end then VBR is more predictive in filesize, but not in quality, and CBR even more predictive in filesize and somewhat also in quality. if you want to upload to any web service in the end, then it almost certainly will be encoded once more and here it is hard to gurantee the grain will survive. It kinda the same with broadcast, where the endresult mostly is re-encoded several times and in too low a bitrate so everything will look mushed up on the final delivery screen :-( Robert 2014-09-01 17:32 GMT+02:00 Roei Tzoref : > Rendernyc- tried and no dice. grain looks blocky > > Robert - about x264 encoder is there a recommended workflow on how to use > it ? > > about the handbrake I just installed it today and experimented. > had good results with RF=20 but the file size was very large. > and with regular bitrate 10000 had the same blocky grain results. > > if you want to experiment > here's a HD1080 5sec grain video (quicktime > movie compressed photojpeg 100%) > > its a grain adjustment layer on 50% gray layer. > cant seem to get it crispy or any where near it with AME encoding > if you willing and able - see if you can get it crispy on mp4 container. > > > > > On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Robert Kjettrup > wrote: > >> or try sending the highquality QT (i mostly use DNxHD or ProRes) through >> the x264 encoder that has an Constant Quality mode that i find keeps the >> grain much better than any mode of the MainConcept h264 in AME. >> An easy to use GUI for x264 is the free Handbrake app, that is available >> for both Win and Mac. >> >> Robert >> >> >> >> 2014-09-01 15:32 GMT+02:00 Rendernyc : >> >> Trying switching to 1 pass VBR in AME and see if it looks better >>> >>> On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:17 AM, "Roei Tzoref" >>> wrote: >>> >>> hey guys >>> >>> I have been having problems achieving a decent crispy video from my AE >>> composition >>> it is a graphic pencil drawing come to life with a lot of sharp details >>> and grain too. >>> >>> I have tried rendering from AE via AME with the presets, >>> or even manually adjusting with VBR ,2PASS 10,12 >>> and I cant get the grain and the fine details >>> I see in the high quality large file version. >>> >>> I have tried rendering a high quality version (photo jpeg 100% from AE) >>> and that I compressed >>> in sorenson squeeze with multipass and still the grain is not as sharp >>> as it should be. >>> >>> so I would like to sort this mess and while I am at - reinforce my >>> render decisions on Lossless video as well. >>> >>> would like to have a survey among you guys. >>> >>> *my questions are:* >>> *1. what is your export option for lossless high quality video for >>> further editing purposes?* >>> *streaming quality is not important. * >>> my answer is: >>> Quicktime animation for 8bit >>> Png sequence for 16bit >>> Render through AE >>> >>> *2. **what is your export option** for high quality viewing purposes HD >>> video? * >>> *say for showing in a presentation or exhibition. * >>> *file size doesnt have to be small and **streaming quality is >>> important.* >>> my answer is: >>> H264 with very high bitrate >>> Render through AME >>> >>> *3. **what is your export option** for sending for client video that >>> maintains* >>> *high quality (grain especially) or for uploading for youtube/Vimeo* >>> *streaming quality **and low file size are** important* >>> my answer is: >>> H264: Render through AME >>> HD720 2Pass VBR 6,8 >>> HD1080 2Pass VBR 10,12 >>> or Render through Sorenson squeeze multipass (which take forever) >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > --047d7b5d33cc4e1de905020455fc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you want to keep the grain structure you will have to a= ccept bigger filesizes, thats just how it works... many small changing deta= ils every frame like grain and noise is just hard for an encoder.
The g= ood thing about Constant Quality settings are that you can predict how it w= ill look... but not how much the filesize will be. On the other end then VB= R is more predictive in filesize, but not in quality, and CBR even more pre= dictive in filesize and somewhat also in quality.

if you want to upload to any web service in the end, th= en it almost certainly will be encoded once more and here it is hard to gur= antee the grain will survive. It kinda the same with broadcast, where the e= ndresult mostly is re-encoded several times and in too low a bitrate so eve= rything will look mushed up on the final delivery screen :-(

Robert



2014-09-01 17:32 GMT+02:00 Roei Tzoref <= span dir=3D"ltr"><AE-List@media-motion.tv>:
Rendernyc- tried and no dice. grain looks blocky=

Robert - about x264 encoder is there a recommend= ed=C2=A0workflow on how to use it ?

about the handbrake I just= installed it today and experimented.
had good results with RF=3D20 but the file size was very large.
<= div>and with regular bitrate 10000 had the same blocky grain results.
=

if you want to experiment
here's a HD1080 5sec grain video= (quicktime movie compressed photojpeg 100%)

its a grain adjustment layer on 50% gray layer.
cant seem to get it crispy or any where near it with AME encoding
<= div>if you willing and able - see if you can get it crispy on mp4 container= .




On Mo= n, Sep 1, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Robert Kjettrup <AE-List@media-motion.tv<= /a>> wrote:
or try sending the highqual= ity QT (i mostly use DNxHD or ProRes) through the x264 encoder that has an = Constant Quality mode that i find keeps the grain much better than any mode= of the MainConcept h264 in AME.
An easy to use GUI for x264 is the free Handbrake app, that is available fo= r both Win and Mac.

Robert



20= 14-09-01 15:32 GMT+02:00 Rendernyc <AE-List@media-motion.tv><= /span>:

Trying switching to 1= pass VBR in AME and see if it looks better

On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:17 AM, "Roei Tzoref" <AE-List@media-motion.tv> w= rote:

hey guys=

I have been having problems achieving a decent crispy v= ideo from my AE composition
it is a graphic pencil drawing come t= o life =C2=A0with a lot of sharp details and grain too.

I have tried rendering from AE via AME with the presets= ,
or even manually adjusting with VBR ,2PASS 10,12=C2=A0
and I cant get the grain and the fine details
I see in the high= quality large file version.

I have tried rendering a high quality version (photo jp= eg 100% from AE) and that I compressed
in sorenson squeeze with m= ultipass and still the grain is not as sharp as it should be.

so I would like to sort this mess and while I am at - =C2=A0= reinforce my render decisions on Lossless video as well.

would like to have a survey among you guys.

my questions are:
1. what is your export option fo= r lossless high quality video for further editing purposes?
=
streaming quality is not important.=C2=A0
my answer is:
Quicktime animation for 8bit
= Png sequence for 16bit
Render through AE

2.=C2=A0<= /b>what is your export option=C2=A0for high quality viewing purpo= ses HD video?=C2=A0
say for showing in a presentation or exhibition.=C2=A0
file size doesnt have to be small and=C2=A0streaming quality is= important.
my answer is:=
H264 with very high bitrate=C2=A0
Render through AME

3.=C2=A0what is y= our export option=C2=A0for sending for client video that maintains
high quality (grain=C2=A0especially) or for uploading for youtube/V= imeo
streaming quality=C2=A0and low file size = are=C2=A0important
= my answer is:
H264:=C2=A0Render through AME
HD720 2P= ass VBR 6,8=C2=A0
HD1080 2Pass VBR= 10,12
or Render through Sorenson squeeze multi= pass (which take forever)

Thanks






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