From: "Roei Tzoref" Received: from mail-lb0-f181.google.com ([209.85.217.181] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 5562617 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 20:35:31 +0200 Received: by mail-lb0-f181.google.com with SMTP id n15so6407340lbi.12 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:35:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=gH6RFoSxJjD4l3eA0B4W1evGFHSC21GRDz5xVVtBAwA=; b=dnmFNGFHW00y7SpfReztceoeXvJgFCdLoWQIsVjaXeWqLd1XziVg5tcLqHav7fYzBO n5onwx7oFvC6CX6enJy35GyEGItQbeU0L9dVA66wIYrpbed6w3egeIf5cj3PC/3ncsub fPqpXX/ZfVXQdmsgUKrWQBlNQT/kkiHAk7OPjNlHzwGS2x9AiC+agek6ZJsaDj1Q0KrR x72DAHb3PFC2iry+ZIU9OSyi02lRiwl/+Tg7MyDzx56iFqc3NutVvBP8aJu03Rs+nqKb ylNjHJuNijwHRRTypx3vxziBcV/aHbwAR0GJk/qXu4gnO5aaVpHLBQupQpzUt8+Tzsmf Xuag== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.28.8 with SMTP id x8mr3844999lbg.104.1409596532965; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.160.197 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 21:35:32 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] H264 Encoding and grain issues and Basic Encoding Survey To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113404289fc68605020544c6 --001a113404289fc68605020544c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Robert - it would suffice if my exported version will be with enough grain *before the vimeo/youtube upload* and that's the output file I am looking for in the meantime. On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Robert Kjettrup wrote: > If you want to keep the grain structure you will have to accept bigger > filesizes, thats just how it works... many small changing details every > frame like grain and noise is just hard for an encoder. > The good thing about Constant Quality settings are that you can predict > how it will look... but not how much the filesize will be. On the other end > then VBR is more predictive in filesize, but not in quality, and CBR even > more predictive in filesize and somewhat also in quality. > > if you want to upload to any web service in the end, then it almost > certainly will be encoded once more and here it is hard to gurantee the > grain will survive. It kinda the same with broadcast, where the endresult > mostly is re-encoded several times and in too low a bitrate so everything > will look mushed up on the final delivery screen :-( > > Robert > > > > 2014-09-01 17:32 GMT+02:00 Roei Tzoref : > > Rendernyc- tried and no dice. grain looks blocky >> >> Robert - about x264 encoder is there a recommended workflow on how to use >> it ? >> >> about the handbrake I just installed it today and experimented. >> had good results with RF=20 but the file size was very large. >> and with regular bitrate 10000 had the same blocky grain results. >> >> if you want to experiment >> here's a HD1080 5sec grain video (quicktime >> movie compressed photojpeg 100%) >> >> its a grain adjustment layer on 50% gray layer. >> cant seem to get it crispy or any where near it with AME encoding >> if you willing and able - see if you can get it crispy on mp4 container. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Robert Kjettrup >> wrote: >> >>> or try sending the highquality QT (i mostly use DNxHD or ProRes) through >>> the x264 encoder that has an Constant Quality mode that i find keeps the >>> grain much better than any mode of the MainConcept h264 in AME. >>> An easy to use GUI for x264 is the free Handbrake app, that is available >>> for both Win and Mac. >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> >>> >>> 2014-09-01 15:32 GMT+02:00 Rendernyc : >>> >>> Trying switching to 1 pass VBR in AME and see if it looks better >>>> >>>> On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:17 AM, "Roei Tzoref" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> hey guys >>>> >>>> I have been having problems achieving a decent crispy video from my AE >>>> composition >>>> it is a graphic pencil drawing come to life with a lot of sharp >>>> details and grain too. >>>> >>>> I have tried rendering from AE via AME with the presets, >>>> or even manually adjusting with VBR ,2PASS 10,12 >>>> and I cant get the grain and the fine details >>>> I see in the high quality large file version. >>>> >>>> I have tried rendering a high quality version (photo jpeg 100% from AE) >>>> and that I compressed >>>> in sorenson squeeze with multipass and still the grain is not as sharp >>>> as it should be. >>>> >>>> so I would like to sort this mess and while I am at - reinforce my >>>> render decisions on Lossless video as well. >>>> >>>> would like to have a survey among you guys. >>>> >>>> *my questions are:* >>>> *1. what is your export option for lossless high quality video for >>>> further editing purposes?* >>>> *streaming quality is not important. * >>>> my answer is: >>>> Quicktime animation for 8bit >>>> Png sequence for 16bit >>>> Render through AE >>>> >>>> *2. **what is your export option** for high quality viewing purposes >>>> HD video? * >>>> *say for showing in a presentation or exhibition. * >>>> *file size doesnt have to be small and **streaming quality is >>>> important.* >>>> my answer is: >>>> H264 with very high bitrate >>>> Render through AME >>>> >>>> *3. **what is your export option** for sending for client video that >>>> maintains* >>>> *high quality (grain especially) or for uploading for youtube/Vimeo* >>>> *streaming quality **and low file size are** important* >>>> my answer is: >>>> H264: Render through AME >>>> HD720 2Pass VBR 6,8 >>>> HD1080 2Pass VBR 10,12 >>>> or Render through Sorenson squeeze multipass (which take forever) >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --001a113404289fc68605020544c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert - it would suffice if my exported version will be w= ith enough grain before the vimeo/youtube upload
and that's = the output file I am looking for in the meantime.=C2=A0

<= /div>


On Mon,= Sep 1, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Robert Kjettrup <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
If you want to keep the gra= in structure you will have to accept bigger filesizes, thats just how it wo= rks... many small changing details every frame like grain and noise is just= hard for an encoder.
The good thing about Constant Quality settings are that you can predict how= it will look... but not how much the filesize will be. On the other end th= en VBR is more predictive in filesize, but not in quality, and CBR even mor= e predictive in filesize and somewhat also in quality.

if you want to upload to any web service in the end, th= en it almost certainly will be encoded once more and here it is hard to gur= antee the grain will survive. It kinda the same with broadcast, where the e= ndresult mostly is re-encoded several times and in too low a bitrate so eve= rything will look mushed up on the final delivery screen :-(

Robert



2014-09-01 17:32 GMT+02:00 Roei Tzoref <= span dir=3D"ltr"><AE-List@media-motion.tv>:

Rendernyc- tried and no dice. grain looks blocky=

Robert - about x264 encoder is there a recommend= ed=C2=A0workflow on how to use it ?

about the handbrake I just= installed it today and experimented.
had good results with RF=3D20 but the file size was very large.
<= div>and with regular bitrate 10000 had the same blocky grain results.
=

if you want to experiment
here's a HD1080 5sec grain video= (quicktime movie compressed photojpeg 100%)

its a grain adjustment layer on 50% gray layer.
cant seem to get it crispy or any where near it with AME encoding
<= div>if you willing and able - see if you can get it crispy on mp4 container= .




On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Robe= rt Kjettrup <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
or try sending the highqual= ity QT (i mostly use DNxHD or ProRes) through the x264 encoder that has an = Constant Quality mode that i find keeps the grain much better than any mode= of the MainConcept h264 in AME.
An easy to use GUI for x264 is the free Handbrake app, that is available fo= r both Win and Mac.

Robert



20= 14-09-01 15:32 GMT+02:00 Rendernyc <AE-List@media-motion.tv><= /span>:

Trying switching to 1= pass VBR in AME and see if it looks better

On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:17 AM, "Roei Tzoref" <AE-List@media-motion.tv> w= rote:

hey guys=

I have been having problems achieving a decent crispy v= ideo from my AE composition
it is a graphic pencil drawing come t= o life =C2=A0with a lot of sharp details and grain too.

I have tried rendering from AE via AME with the presets= ,
or even manually adjusting with VBR ,2PASS 10,12=C2=A0
and I cant get the grain and the fine details
I see in the high= quality large file version.

I have tried rendering a high quality version (photo jp= eg 100% from AE) and that I compressed
in sorenson squeeze with m= ultipass and still the grain is not as sharp as it should be.

so I would like to sort this mess and while I am at - =C2=A0= reinforce my render decisions on Lossless video as well.

would like to have a survey among you guys.

my questions are:
1. what is your export option fo= r lossless high quality video for further editing purposes?
=
streaming quality is not important.=C2=A0
my answer is:
Quicktime animation for 8bit
= Png sequence for 16bit
Render through AE

2.=C2=A0<= /b>what is your export option=C2=A0for high quality viewing purpo= ses HD video?=C2=A0
say for showing in a presentation or exhibition.=C2=A0
file size doesnt have to be small and=C2=A0streaming quality is= important.
my answer is:=
H264 with very high bitrate=C2=A0
Render through AME

3.=C2=A0what is y= our export option=C2=A0for sending for client video that maintains
high quality (grain=C2=A0especially) or for uploading for youtube/V= imeo
streaming quality=C2=A0and low file size = are=C2=A0important
= my answer is:
H264:=C2=A0Render through AME
HD720 2P= ass VBR 6,8=C2=A0
HD1080 2Pass VBR= 10,12
or Render through Sorenson squeeze multi= pass (which take forever)

Thanks







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