From: "J Bills" Received: from [40.92.4.23] (HELO NAM02-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 6335226 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:56:46 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=R3nkg3QWINVywnXo829UetrLMIGLP5vCmFVjvc2/L5Q=; b=UioIfkSwACfswbs9ECYML8alBZrpUmEHOplXURPUyZK5xLIX9V3EyDVaU3V7BH/H+w97u7kUoFGicU6EhmW420c7+QSsZ7c2BbQCl5qgy/wsk/6UaqoBf+ZK6J6pyKIOUDIcLk90OuNZByM9yFF/41WB28tZoQxdPKwLx0g61OqD7vpm5a/Z/9RhrrXlm/bawUvumkz8AIrDkjcdy7Aq/zyJ6VUjvpDNNkV9zkWaRV89u9HjTUxqv6c3z/L6GaNlrOj1ydNKeW67ht6Sa3rf5zObpde5bgLQ06kVPrXjS4i54924Qy4wwqA84s3TEM1x4Vf40t5OgjNQTPWz613H4w== Received: from BL2NAM02FT057.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.76.60) by BL2NAM02HT123.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.77.205) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.20.77.10; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 09:58:49 +0000 Received: from MWHPR11MB1504.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (10.152.76.53) by BL2NAM02FT057.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.77.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.20.77.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 09:58:49 +0000 Received: from MWHPR11MB1504.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.54.8]) by MWHPR11MB1504.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.54.8]) with mapi id 15.20.0077.020; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 09:58:49 +0000 To: Chris Zwar Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB Thread-Topic: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB Thread-Index: AQHTQuO6I+uEgC5ttUCbQxAbWp/KiaLf5b8L Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 09:58:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: media-motion.tv; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;media-motion.tv; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:4DEA579B831A4D431782FEB9BC5F2C86EDBF0991A60101AD2D922439525A2CB7;UpperCasedChecksum:D0E7CE512535A87BA62A083D35FEF82C1B9078635607078CE3F3B5C692086F1A;SizeAsReceived:6858;Count:45 x-tmn: [++KCvO8tVi8wGnyQNyod59k7tbYDVas6] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;BL2NAM02HT123;6:KQSLPFv56w+6R53gypWERpDBRboJxlwJyHl2doH6NJq2uT/REdhvQypZhuLEi70Bt00tmn1joUIvtuihvMY/g/ub81bdhQ4HaZZP1Vva76Lo3sGJ+RxKHtpPCz4WxelbY97GFljV0cq1TAG6lGWDS6MdRIX4pcxZiVxWhHchS0PEA5E/GdkmObrbHoPJso/je2V9pQfmLZs/2kNTDKfIZs2t5TqMC4vtxi7PbRMkr4UsRvF7Lt9yR4WsBR8n7opUYURtdYG2xCLZbm18QsAiQ6H3FDq9uluxLC/NJJHWuOzT7REfuh+vNTXFiDDaX9KOwyoL/VPfC65H0qqMT0GKVQ==;5:MfnmCS5SsaLx3IuI0fZxqXXq/tYecEPkvnXRw1dtb9drCF56H8PzUr907ELZBLixBajm4l6jS7qKshbLQfckE5zp5MsqaW29VOUs/mIBhjs2/uzHNNH7vmTYNloutPoezVa+rxZIk25qeiNsX/kmzw==;24:5mdR6K5qKqLCVzUYz5nycMlLXSA26yjtRLE4jEyE40+5LpOxtYUpnTRllxgFokEkgV5TDmQeFb5nnpxMjiohMIKVs8uF0/tC6ZaAvURjekM=;7:m9rUVy75YOI31Tv4ZlE1k2R+1aVUiZnavItvNWPTsfUGHXmwPJDNX12IBBxGS2qeQgSELwgnkNTL+qXIff5olDB4eHAuQWVDcJsvDTWdxviZJ2DUb1nhr4Xyk6EiSWovKR+L3p7hnDM5XloWduNPAhuZFOn1Emlneo3s5ruA2pFC5ed6BTF+HNFvMob4ObT5ZYb3y5CfEWLtkAOTvuZBISp2r9v0wkS3yujTFTwwHpc= x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e4f8f984-87c0-4413-a0a5-08d51157d64c x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125374)(1603101448)(1701031045);SRVR:BL2NAM02HT123; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL2NAM02HT123: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863)(155532106045638); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(444000031);SRVR:BL2NAM02HT123;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(100000800101)(100110000095)(100000801101)(100110300095)(100000802101)(100110100095)(100000803101)(100110400095)(100000804101)(100110200095)(100000805101)(100110500095);SRVR:BL2NAM02HT123; x-forefront-prvs: 04583CED1A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(7070007)(98901004);DIR:OUT;SFP:1901;SCL:1;SRVR:BL2NAM02HT123;H:MWHPR11MB1504.namprd11.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MWHPR11MB15041597736B4483CD4A9332B94B0MWHPR11MB1504namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Oct 2017 09:58:49.7184 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL2NAM02HT123 --_000_MWHPR11MB15041597736B4483CD4A9332B94B0MWHPR11MB1504namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how Nuke ha= ndles this." As far as simplicity/elegance of the float implementation, co= upled with speed. Float is hard in AE. Render times spike, effects are still stuck in 16/8. = Color management is complicated in AE. Or at least, relatively so. When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into the = students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place from th= e start and letting that drive many of the decisions. Thinking in terms of= acquisition, viewing and output. Taking the path of least resistance wher= ever possible. They definitely know how to properly work in float and sett= ings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things like that, but they also k= now the cost involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, "know when to run." Sta= ying 8 bit and keeping things simple can sometimes be a big sanity boost, a= ll things considered. For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when grading a f= eature that's cinema bound. In Resolve. Sometimes it makes sense to go ah= ead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and change the monito= rs over and that whole dance. It's involved enough that I won't do it for = dramas or like romcoms, but there was one recently that was kind of a Scott= Pilgrim type of film, with lots of bright colors and clubby laser tag type= of in-game scenes all shot raw, where I went ahead with a P3 native grade.= I do think it made a difference and I could pick the p3 monitor vs srgb i= n a pepsi challenge situation. There are definitely colors not reproduceab= le, if the material is flashy enough. But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work extended g= amut, often times there's something to be said for just sticking in the sam= e colorspace as your audience and making your decisions there, even if it i= s dumbed down from what you could potentially be looking at. Although, if = you really want to impress a client or director and show colors the "other = shops" don't... maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know. You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't help= but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the lowest= denominator TVs can show a wider range. We'll realize how color challenge= d we once were. ________________________________ From: After Effects Mail List on behalf of Chris = Zwar Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to work out the best tec= hnical approach to working with HDR footage in a 32-bit project (usually li= near). While I=92m interested to know if there are benefits to basic motio= n graphics and normal HD video, I have often had a hunch that if you have b= eautiful HDR footage or renders and you want to work in 32-bit float, then = sRGB is going to handicap the process somehow... > On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar wrote: > > Hi all, > > Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB or Rec= 709. I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much thought, and = for the types of content I often work on that has been fine. > > But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with and I = was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was much differ= ence. While the results on my screen were different, I wouldn=92t say they= were better or even more accurate=85 it was fun for an hour or so but I wo= n=92t pretend I learned much. Certainly I don=92t really know the differen= ce between Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc. And while I under= stand the basics of colour management and a =93working space=94 I have wond= ered if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins. > > So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on setting th= e working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and if that could = lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, etc etc. > > -Chris > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to +---End of message---+ To unsubscribe send any message to --_000_MWHPR11MB15041597736B4483CD4A9332B94B0MWHPR11MB1504namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how Nu= ke handles this."  As far as simplicity/elegance of the float imp= lementation, coupled with speed.

Float is hard in AE.  Render times spike, effects are still stuck in 1= 6/8.  Color management is complicated in AE.  Or at least, relati= vely so.

When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into the = students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place from th= e start and letting that drive many of the decisions.  Thinking in ter= ms of acquisition, viewing and output.  Taking the path of least resistance wherever possible.  They definite= ly know how to properly work in float and settings to choose for usual srgb= viewing and things like that, but they also know the cost involved and, to= quote Kenny Rodgers, "know when to run."  Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can sometimes be a big sanity boos= t, all things considered.

For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when grading a f= eature that's cinema bound.  In Resolve.  Sometimes it makes sens= e to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and change = the monitors over and that whole dance.  It's involved enough that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but there w= as one recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of= bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, wh= ere I went ahead with a P3 native grade.  I do think it made a difference and I could pick the p3 monit= or vs srgb in a pepsi challenge situation.  There are definitely color= s not reproduceable, if the material is flashy enough.

But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work extended g= amut, often times there's something to be said for just sticking in the sam= e colorspace as your audience and making your decisions there, even if it i= s dumbed down from what you could potentially be looking at.  Although, if you really want to impress a= client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't...&nb= sp; maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know.

You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I = can't help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even = the lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range.  We'll realize how = color challenged we once were.



From: After Effects Mail = List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> on behalf of Chris Zwar <AE-List@me= dia-motion.tv>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB
 
I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is= to work out the best technical approach to working with HDR footage in a 3= 2-bit project (usually linear).  While I=92m interested to know if the= re are benefits to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had a hunch that if you have beautiful H= DR footage or renders and you want to work in 32-bit float, then sRGB is go= ing to handicap the process somehow...

> On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv>= wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB or = Rec709.  I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much thoug= ht, and for the types of content I often work on that has been fine.
>
> But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with and= I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was much dif= ference.  While the results on my screen were different, I wouldn=92t = say they were better or even more accurate=85 it was fun for an hour or so but I won=92t pretend I learned much.  C= ertainly I don=92t really know the difference between Adobe RGB, Apple RGB,= Wide Gamut RGB etc etc.  And while I understand the basics of colour = management and a =93working space=94 I have wondered if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins.
>
> So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on setting= the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and if that cou= ld lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, etc etc.
>
> -Chris
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>=


+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>
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