From: "Chris Zwar" Received: from mail-pf0-f180.google.com ([209.85.192.180] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 6335593 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:00:13 +0200 Received: by mail-pf0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 17so4448894pfn.12 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:02:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chriszwar-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=sM/3OAK1jBw9nULr2M8BM5UyAs7T+gcmu7PcwPTndVs=; b=RGOHyJVRsah4YvJw/Da7fwBLob/7qxSXhbsF+dJ+QM2jUQVvmaRuwM5+YEwgsyHRY0 EMUOZU78zTjtEfZPm26uDlezprbjQaOO0L3Via2Eqra32zl4z26X4g9XP5GU3/CdaSHf TA7lKwzol/Q9Osm5P7Nx0Z6iV84v8vGO8r2/hvoS/NcqTF0NUD750Xz7Ftzw5OTC8WFM BCI6KgQWfAye8uL09ApcRrI7rsNo2EuvhNJGKEb0FN3R99tqo00rhoyJ3KNbWgt1/6gz OLDtUbM0ueK1vVzZUR83gPdDt8FOPx89vST+5SUaltZnitsw279NMFBee2wAYjwZIrmp xDNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=sM/3OAK1jBw9nULr2M8BM5UyAs7T+gcmu7PcwPTndVs=; b=IfCSGBAZl1g/wa7gDIgtVt5Cgp65NdP2/oTN77Lw85jjr8mSnrO1g7jbhRECTrZ/Sh uBdO+Y21aOvVi8yhE4515BbgKYkWg3DUJoEopBI6l4TE43TbWg0+6JNts620zeUXcJ54 JOCBxUdWWeCMnUyqA+PpjveaVXxxmyuCFdF+YXonbU0NfHE88QbSo2AWhnj4InIlzfvI nIqlkfjIiCa8fsa/N2l8ykybAer941HeKro/XpyqyIRjPhfn2Lt3p850StK2DGWdj2rz T3o4ArE2733DO4AcS8nEr1HnelnHF9Zf7gIXKr9jugrRkTTKWadE5z/R2GkDN9gukezu vsbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVoH4Q7B7IQVudHxu9EiX0WWZOq8DBLKQZLmlK4qtemdeU/mPDb 5L71MY4sq44gth2obKzJGgzjT2DKoOA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCrZKmp4KMn1HwVWrLM/WKcRR4ySTbHFHOS8AuwNIXtWclvY3qanJNub7VN7omZUAzHcxCMig== X-Received: by 10.99.63.199 with SMTP id m190mr29285pga.273.1507809737593; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.0.167] (CPE-144-132-194-22.nsw.bigpond.net.au. [144.132.194.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d80sm30932432pfj.170.2017.10.12.05.02.14 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4616EDD5-33D5-4F2B-8948-F05BC2FBDAA2" Message-Id: <91CF5A1F-4296-401E-9DAE-3FD2FE05D7D7@chriszwar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:02:12 +1100 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) --Apple-Mail=_4616EDD5-33D5-4F2B-8948-F05BC2FBDAA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks for replying. I do understand what you mean, I have wide-gamut = monitors and and an I1 pro calibrator but I remember looking at the = process to calibrate the monitors in something other than sRGB and = deciding it was all too much work. It=92s pretty easy to demonstrate the differences between 8/16/32 bit. = My favourite demonstration is to simply apply a 4-colour gradient and = then 2 exposure effects, setting the first one to something extreme like = -15 stops and then the second to the opposite, e.g. +15. In 8 bit you = get a banded mess. In 16 bit there=92s no difference at all. Change = the exposure effects to +15 and -15, and you can clearly see the = difference between 8/16 and then 32 float. Are you aware of any comparable demonstration that might show a = difference / benefit to having a working space is something larger than = sRGB? -Chris > On 12 Oct 2017, at 8:58 pm, J Bills wrote: >=20 > These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how = Nuke handles this." As far as simplicity/elegance of the float = implementation, coupled with speed. >=20 > Float is hard in AE. Render times spike, effects are still stuck in = 16/8. Color management is complicated in AE. Or at least, relatively = so. >=20 > When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into = the students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place = from the start and letting that drive many of the decisions. Thinking = in terms of acquisition, viewing and output. Taking the path of least = resistance wherever possible. They definitely know how to properly work = in float and settings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things like = that, but they also know the cost involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, = "know when to run." Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can = sometimes be a big sanity boost, all things considered. >=20 > For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when = grading a feature that's cinema bound. In Resolve. Sometimes it makes = sense to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and = change the monitors over and that whole dance. It's involved enough = that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but there was one = recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of = bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, = where I went ahead with a P3 native grade. I do think it made a = difference and I could pick the p3 monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge = situation. There are definitely colors not reproduceable, if the = material is flashy enough. >=20 > But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work = extended gamut, often times there's something to be said for just = sticking in the same colorspace as your audience and making your = decisions there, even if it is dumbed down from what you could = potentially be looking at. Although, if you really want to impress a = client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't... maybe you = flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know. >=20 > You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't = help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the = lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range. We'll realize how color = challenged we once were. >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: After Effects Mail List on behalf of = Chris Zwar > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB > =20 > I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to work out the = best technical approach to working with HDR footage in a 32-bit project = (usually linear). While I=92m interested to know if there are benefits = to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had a hunch = that if you have beautiful HDR footage or renders and you want to work = in 32-bit float, then sRGB is going to handicap the process somehow... >=20 > > On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar = wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB = or Rec709. I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much = thought, and for the types of content I often work on that has been = fine. > >=20 > > But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with = and I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was = much difference. While the results on my screen were different, I = wouldn=92t say they were better or even more accurate=85 it was fun for = an hour or so but I won=92t pretend I learned much. Certainly I don=92t = really know the difference between Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB = etc etc. And while I understand the basics of colour management and a = =93working space=94 I have wondered if choosing something non-standard = will adversely affect plugins. > >=20 > > So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on = setting the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and = if that could lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, = etc etc. > >=20 > > -Chris > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to >=20 >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to --Apple-Mail=_4616EDD5-33D5-4F2B-8948-F05BC2FBDAA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Thanks for replying.  I do understand what you mean, I = have wide-gamut monitors and and an I1 pro calibrator but I remember = looking at the process to calibrate the monitors in something other than = sRGB and deciding it was all too much work.

It=92s pretty easy to demonstrate the = differences between 8/16/32 bit.  My favourite demonstration is to = simply apply a 4-colour gradient and then 2 exposure effects, setting = the first one to something extreme like -15 stops and then the second to = the opposite, e.g. +15.  In 8 bit you get a banded mess.  In = 16 bit there=92s no difference at all.  Change the exposure effects = to +15 and -15, and you can clearly see the difference between 8/16 and = then 32 float.

Are you aware of any comparable demonstration that might show = a difference / benefit to having a working space is something larger = than sRGB?

-Chris

On 12 Oct 2017, at 8:58 pm, J = Bills <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I = love how Nuke handles this."  As far as simplicity/elegance of the = float implementation, coupled with speed.

Float is hard in AE.  = Render times spike, effects are still stuck in 16/8.  Color = management is complicated in AE.  Or at least, relatively so.

When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to = hammer into the students the importance of planning - getting output = specs in place from the start and letting that drive many of the = decisions.  Thinking in terms of acquisition, viewing and = output.  Taking the path of least resistance wherever = possible.  They definitely know how to properly work in float and = settings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things like that, but they = also know the cost involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, "know when to = run."  Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can sometimes be a = big sanity boost, all things considered.

For me personally, = the extended gamut only comes into play when grading a feature that's = cinema bound.  In Resolve.  Sometimes it makes sense to go = ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and change the = monitors over and that whole dance.  It's involved enough that I = won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but there was one recently that = was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of bright colors and = clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, where I went ahead = with a P3 native grade.  I do think it made a difference and I = could pick the p3 monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge situation.  = There are definitely colors not reproduceable, if the material is flashy = enough.

But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to = work extended gamut, often times there's something to be said for just = sticking in the same colorspace as your audience and making your = decisions there, even if it is dumbed down from what you could = potentially be looking at.  Although, if you really want to impress = a client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't...  = maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know.

You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, = but I can't help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up = and even the lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range.  We'll = realize how color challenged we once were.



From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> on behalf of Chris Zwar = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 = 3:53 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces = other than sRGB
 
I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to = work out the best technical approach to working with HDR footage in a = 32-bit project (usually linear).  While I=92m interested to know if = there are benefits to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have = often had a hunch that if you have beautiful HDR footage or renders and = you want to work in 32-bit float, then sRGB is going to handicap the = process somehow...

> On 12 Oct 2017, at = 9:49 am, Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Just wondering if/when anyone = uses a working space other than sRGB or Rec709.  I have always set = it to sRGB without giving it too much thought, and for the types of = content I often work on that has been fine.
> 
> But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to = play with and I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if = there was much difference.  While the results on my screen were = different, I wouldn=92t say they were better or even more accurate=85 it = was fun for an hour or so but I won=92t pretend I learned much.  = Certainly I don=92t really know the difference between Adobe RGB, Apple = RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc.  And while I understand the basics of = colour management and a =93working space=94 I have wondered if choosing = something non-standard will adversely affect plugins.
> 
> So just wondering if anyone = else has more technical insight on setting the working space to = something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and if that could lead to = technical improvements in quality when grading, etc etc.
> 
> -Chris
> = +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any = message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>


+---End of message---+
To = unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>

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