From: "Walter Soyka" Received: from mail-qt0-f181.google.com ([209.85.216.181] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 6335629 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 15:43:01 +0200 Received: by mail-qt0-f181.google.com with SMTP id q4so13674104qtq.8 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:45:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=keenlive-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zRSthG/RK7fvVBXP0lzpBnxsswpg35kkKVJIKAH65A4=; b=VgUhMMPt617c830YoAGnSVtaBruuTJenmZzh2dNsftdGE/GOTQ4n6siRTgrK8SHaU4 7hTbCszngXPqHZSiA9SNBT5kSswUpetW+5NRg81LNKipLkceYSnRM5ncLG3bzh6RgOeC miVivUI89F/RlqhIEQU3Rdto4pJ4pRoSF6/aDfrBasfBvkLZZikRbj7t6FVuvOHTqF8w s+MqctwFS7i7m22xTUGKDq0fj24WUk3CCyGEGEmcjFSawckfLqF7a4QzuRq5nyltK2Jt sD+diyfMI8i3bw9nv7ViFYIfUWU9LxYe5XpmjmxCYGXVr+WLJlu+ppb40I/cOrWwNSux nF2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=zRSthG/RK7fvVBXP0lzpBnxsswpg35kkKVJIKAH65A4=; b=mfJjkhcu4s7PoUrAlIFvdJRTSYmJdj4E4uk675PzFl9WbmkOQC3vwWPZ8Zk6TU+UmV 1KGhCWPK5BBB5aX9fl7D3a2HoP3IERIfTDt9ZrHV8vTmHoJGAWpfxAw7j7ZFjQW4sLEL VKlUYZloxvk0yh7k4dhskaNWYENGzRxEkw5XdsMA9Vev2gvGIzm3Gf1ZRoJnIzjJnlef /jPxB7s5EbA/vVjX32w0w3J8xRzQ6HIL4FVhsnERFIoKrcFsWhY9NRO0/N+y9KuJrub7 Bv46m1FZPhmoNmbs0FuMWf6qGSISP22G3IkpZ729AjbjyokR8/p4XwOUISLxjmAsENtD SQ0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUR/UuVhs5BBp18/j/SBVC8f0EsYHi1gZzfJt9ktsiPxmTeXrgP onrDJkmTMfXOixoxtF3LfNPrGJjJO/9b7ldE1Tvc3YaN X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QD8lAp8kXPVMC91ZFT/YrEUf8cjwhitwHrOHMDTxWV9MdHqMlCsXdwWfcJxP+mO4KboSfRYxi29eIxOMCrnAjM= X-Received: by 10.200.46.132 with SMTP id h4mr3822953qta.88.1507815906332; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:45:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.148.149 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:44:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 09:44:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1145c1ee7be266055b59bff5" --001a1145c1ee7be266055b59bff5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In theory, working in sRGB with a floating point pipeline makes the gamut unbounded; that is, because you can represent RGB values below 0 and above 1, you can reach colors that would normally fall outside of the sRGB gamut, so you should not be clipping color anywhere by using sRGB as your working space at 32bpc. However, your choice of working space doesn't just define the gamut -- it also relates the RGB values the computer uses to the colors we see. Two different spaces may use different RGB values to represent the same color. Since image processing is math based on these numbers, your choice of working space affects how the tools you use affect the image. Changing the working space after you've done some work will give you different -- sometimes very different -- results, because the numbers don't mean the same thing anymore. The good news is that if you're working in a color-managed pipeline and stick to sRGB as your one working space, what you see is what you get. The bad news is that the tools don't behave as you might expect with colors that exceed the normal gamut. And of course, any non-float tool will break stuff. If you want to get a little nerdy: https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/unbounded-srgb-as-universal-workin= g-space.html TLDR; Adobe recommends working in the widest space that you intend to output. I think that's pretty solid advice. (I'm not a color scientist, but sometimes I play one on the Internet.) *walter soyka* =E2=96=BC keen live walter@keenlive.com On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:58 AM, J Bills wrote: > These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how Nuke > handles this." As far as simplicity/elegance of the float implementation= , > coupled with speed. > > Float is hard in AE. Render times spike, effects are still stuck in > 16/8. Color management is complicated in AE. Or at least, relatively so= . > > When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into th= e > students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place from > the start and letting that drive many of the decisions. Thinking in term= s > of acquisition, viewing and output. Taking the path of least resistance > wherever possible. They definitely know how to properly work in float an= d > settings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things like that, but they > also know the cost involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, "know when to > run." Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can sometimes be a big > sanity boost, all things considered. > > For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when grading a > feature that's cinema bound. In Resolve. Sometimes it makes sense to go > ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and change the > monitors over and that whole dance. It's involved enough that I won't do > it for dramas or like romcoms, but there was one recently that was kind o= f > a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of bright colors and clubby laser > tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, where I went ahead with a P3 > native grade. I do think it made a difference and I could pick the p3 > monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge situation. There are definitely > colors not reproduceable, if the material is flashy enough. > > But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work extended > gamut, often times there's something to be said for just sticking in the > same colorspace as your audience and making your decisions there, even if > it is dumbed down from what you could potentially be looking at. Althoug= h, > if you really want to impress a client or director and show colors the > "other shops" don't... maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don= 't > know. > > You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't > help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the > lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range. We'll realize how color > challenged we once were. > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* After Effects Mail List on behalf of > Chris Zwar > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM > *To:* After Effects Mail List > *Subject:* Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB > > I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to work out the best > technical approach to working with HDR footage in a 32-bit project (usual= ly > linear). While I=E2=80=99m interested to know if there are benefits to b= asic > motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had a hunch that if you > have beautiful HDR footage or renders and you want to work in 32-bit floa= t, > then sRGB is going to handicap the process somehow... > > > On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB or > Rec709. I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much thought, > and for the types of content I often work on that has been fine. > > > > But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with and = I > was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was much > difference. While the results on my screen were different, I wouldn=E2= =80=99t say > they were better or even more accurate=E2=80=A6 it was fun for an hour or= so but I > won=E2=80=99t pretend I learned much. Certainly I don=E2=80=99t really k= now the difference > between Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc. And while I > understand the basics of colour management and a =E2=80=9Cworking space= =E2=80=9D I have > wondered if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins= . > > > > So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on setting > the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and if that > could lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, etc etc. > > > > -Chris > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to > > > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to > --001a1145c1ee7be266055b59bff5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In theory, working in sRGB with a floating point pipeline makes = the gamut unbounded; that is, because you can represent RGB values below 0 = and above 1, you can reach colors that would normally fall outside of the s= RGB gamut, so you should not be clipping color anywhere by using sRGB as yo= ur working space at 32bpc.

However, your choice of working space do= esn't just define the gamut -- it also relates the RGB values the compu= ter uses to the colors we see. Two different spaces may use different RGB v= alues to represent the same color. Since image processing is math based on = these numbers, your choice of working space affects how the tools you use a= ffect the image. Changing the working space after you've done some work= will give you different -- sometimes very different -- results, because th= e numbers don't mean the same thing anymore.

The good news is that i= f you're working in a color-managed pipeline and stick to sRGB as your = one working space, what you see=C2=A0is what you get. The bad news is that = the tools don't behave as you might expect with colors that exceed the = normal gamut. And of course, any non-float tool will break stuff.

=
If you= want to get a little nerdy:
https://ninedegreesbelow.c= om/photography/unbounded-srgb-as-universal-working-space.html

<= /font>
= TLDR;=C2=A0Adobe recommends working in the widest space that you intend to = output. I think that's pretty solid advice.

(I'm not a color scientist, but sometime= s I play one on the Internet.)

walter soyka= =E2=96=BC keen live=C2=A0
<= /div>
On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:58 AM, J Bills <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how Nu= ke handles this."=C2=A0 As far as simplicity/elegance of the float imp= lementation, coupled with speed.

Float is hard in AE.=C2=A0 Render times spike, effects are still stuck in 1= 6/8.=C2=A0 Color management is complicated in AE.=C2=A0 Or at least, relati= vely so.

When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into the = students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place from th= e start and letting that drive many of the decisions.=C2=A0 Thinking in ter= ms of acquisition, viewing and output.=C2=A0 Taking the path of least resistance wherever possible.=C2=A0 They definite= ly know how to properly work in float and settings to choose for usual srgb= viewing and things like that, but they also know the cost involved and, to= quote Kenny Rodgers, "know when to run."=C2=A0 Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can sometimes be a big sanity boos= t, all things considered.

For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when grading a f= eature that's cinema bound.=C2=A0 In Resolve.=C2=A0 Sometimes it makes = sense to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and cha= nge the monitors over and that whole dance.=C2=A0 It's involved enough that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but the= re was one recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lot= s of bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw= , where I went ahead with a P3 native grade.=C2=A0 I do think it made a difference and I could pick the p3 monit= or vs srgb in a pepsi challenge situation.=C2=A0 There are definitely color= s not reproduceable, if the material is flashy enough.

But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work extend= ed gamut, often times there's something to be said for just sticking in= the same colorspace as your audience and making your decisions there, even= if it is dumbed down from what you could potentially be looking at.=C2=A0 Although, if you really want to impress a= client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't..= .=C2=A0 maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know.

You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I = can't help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and e= ven the lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range.=C2=A0 We'll real= ize how color challenged we once were.



Fr= om: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> on behalf of Chris Zw= ar <AE-List= @media-motion.tv>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB
=C2=A0
I forgot to add that my= main interest in asking is to work out the best technical approach to work= ing with HDR footage in a 32-bit project (usually linear).=C2=A0 While I=E2= =80=99m interested to know if there are benefits to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had a hunch that if you have beautiful H= DR footage or renders and you want to work in 32-bit float, then sRGB is go= ing to handicap the process somehow...

> On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote: >
> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB or = Rec709.=C2=A0 I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much thoug= ht, and for the types of content I often work on that has been fine.
>
> But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with and= I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was much dif= ference.=C2=A0 While the results on my screen were different, I wouldn=E2= =80=99t say they were better or even more accurate=E2=80=A6 it was fun for an hour or so but I won=E2=80=99t pretend I learned much.= =C2=A0 Certainly I don=E2=80=99t really know the difference between Adobe R= GB, Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc.=C2=A0 And while I understand the bas= ics of colour management and a =E2=80=9Cworking space=E2=80=9D I have wonde= red if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins.
>
> So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on setting= the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and if that cou= ld lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, etc etc.
>
> -Chris
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>


+---End of message---+
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