From: "Chris Zwar" Received: from mail-pf0-f176.google.com ([209.85.192.176] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 6337190 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 13:58:50 +0200 Received: by mail-pf0-f176.google.com with SMTP id e64so13744144pfk.9 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 05:01:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chriszwar-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=NIpxjP7GBvhGpQ2hBHvEiHz1N2h0ggsBWqWySOfn+GI=; b=Z3MvDJ+CXKv43d/OORYNTCVq1k3i2vLFOoPxycHh6RdroMz+3VNiD6Ur1aYVAJPynI AuzPL/51POPyCybwvQoNJgEEocZdoEWphGffBCmx9TsiODzIh792ikEw81wQIPMADzJh xk5UPOZD5jxVi5/UAXuBLByQj4RknzQQviWBaBxP3imT3Qmfv3n9J9Z0zWQi0CEfUu15 alK2CHdmiqvI725MbBHkjoaFcNDSxeVVXFa6NrNDFrD3PDdHnnSDWhg3ZwYSqcrnL+x7 AZPPyafsXJdFf4WgkkH77ob4LMyeRQm/TcQ9jvfuwctnqGNXtl3wS5vT+ym4O54YsNIu +mkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=NIpxjP7GBvhGpQ2hBHvEiHz1N2h0ggsBWqWySOfn+GI=; b=XNCxsAjabPCZ3Z0y71Tw6Qw8d6rJKsWdb4yI/6xuzJXsUQ4oYR4sRIu+YtzVKOo2h6 0hGZKxLkSAVohBnQFtYRLl/tcuX8rJZ7GD7k37ljwtKxEOx8KSpol30KjDuSEWVVTNKB bGPSssbu8Fc4/vzSkztciqTUvUT3L7dUB0MjSzK7Tf9fqaUaC2WO82HHUlXDz+aCXwqM fS1wHUeuhjMy8HbY4KICU73Ogs7XLwkPmr++QSNJNdxIcuWfLiF3Z1GyCWWuzMQ+mPaW ZVzho5+suPe6RFOLZe283ZdTE9FhFAGh5n7942RVGtVYomVWNJVpSs67KB+oD0YmgMH0 rz+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUio1y+D9HBdl4OTJVDTIzC76JJ549We525Yu6ExvNAjxGD06HO Ojj/RUHJM8WjfKjLfm7EdOdpBLI+b5s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBiu6VWbMHEpyJr489e6T+wfCOtqH/yaenJ2G27PxPfONdr82S8sARQ9MxR8LUXd9XaSZ4mOw== X-Received: by 10.99.126.84 with SMTP id o20mr5730094pgn.220.1508068860233; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 05:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.0.167] (CPE-144-132-194-22.nsw.bigpond.net.au. [144.132.194.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q13sm11485000pfi.166.2017.10.15.05.00.56 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 15 Oct 2017 05:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_46166C50-34F8-4167-87CB-8BBD88C143B4" Message-Id: <2CCCFF8B-D67E-404F-8CA7-5085878E1C48@chriszwar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 23:00:53 +1100 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) --Apple-Mail=_46166C50-34F8-4167-87CB-8BBD88C143B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks for the replies. I enjoyed that article & website, it confirmed/ = reassured a few hunches I had. > On 13 Oct 2017, at 7:58 am, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: >=20 > The film I=E2=80=99m working in is mostly 32-bit ProPhotoRGB (started = that way as it way Adobe=E2=80=99s D-Cinema suggestion years ago and = have to maintain it now). Some projects linear, some not. > =20 > I do timelapses in 16-bit AdobeRGB (camera is set to AdobeRGB). > =20 > best, > Stephen > =20 > stephen van vuuren > 336.202.4777 > =20 > http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ > http://www.sv2dcp.com/ > http://www.sv2studios.com/ > =20 > A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like = fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, = what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. > =E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 9:45 AM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB > =20 > In theory, working in sRGB with a floating point pipeline makes the = gamut unbounded; that is, because you can represent RGB values below 0 = and above 1, you can reach colors that would normally fall outside of = the sRGB gamut, so you should not be clipping color anywhere by using = sRGB as your working space at 32bpc. > =20 > However, your choice of working space doesn't just define the gamut -- = it also relates the RGB values the computer uses to the colors we see. = Two different spaces may use different RGB values to represent the same = color. Since image processing is math based on these numbers, your = choice of working space affects how the tools you use affect the image. = Changing the working space after you've done some work will give you = different -- sometimes very different -- results, because the numbers = don't mean the same thing anymore. > =20 > The good news is that if you're working in a color-managed pipeline = and stick to sRGB as your one working space, what you see is what you = get. The bad news is that the tools don't behave as you might expect = with colors that exceed the normal gamut. And of course, any non-float = tool will break stuff. > =20 > If you want to get a little nerdy: > = https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/unbounded-srgb-as-universal-worki= ng-space.html = > =20 > TLDR; Adobe recommends working in the widest space that you intend to = output. I think that's pretty solid advice. > =20 > (I'm not a color scientist, but sometimes I play one on the Internet.) >=20 > walter soyka =E2=96=BC keen live=20 > walter@keenlive.com > =20 > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:58 AM, J Bills > wrote: > These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how = Nuke handles this." As far as simplicity/elegance of the float = implementation, coupled with speed. > =20 > Float is hard in AE. Render times spike, effects are still stuck in = 16/8. Color management is complicated in AE. Or at least, relatively = so. > =20 > When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into = the students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place = from the start and letting that drive many of the decisions. Thinking = in terms of acquisition, viewing and output. Taking the path of least = resistance wherever possible. They definitely know how to properly work = in float and settings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things like = that, but they also know the cost involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, = "know when to run." Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can = sometimes be a big sanity boost, all things considered. > =20 > For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when = grading a feature that's cinema bound. In Resolve. Sometimes it makes = sense to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and = change the monitors over and that whole dance. It's involved enough = that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but there was one = recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of = bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, = where I went ahead with a P3 native grade. I do think it made a = difference and I could pick the p3 monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge = situation. There are definitely colors not reproduceable, if the = material is flashy enough. > =20 > But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work = extended gamut, often times there's something to be said for just = sticking in the same colorspace as your audience and making your = decisions there, even if it is dumbed down from what you could = potentially be looking at. Although, if you really want to impress a = client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't... maybe you = flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know. > =20 > You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't = help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the = lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range. We'll realize how color = challenged we once were. > =20 > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List > on behalf of Chris Zwar = > > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB > =20 > I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to work out the = best technical approach to working with HDR footage in a 32-bit project = (usually linear). While I=E2=80=99m interested to know if there are = benefits to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had = a hunch that if you have beautiful HDR footage or renders and you want = to work in 32-bit float, then sRGB is going to handicap the process = somehow... >=20 > > On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar > wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB = or Rec709. I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much = thought, and for the types of content I often work on that has been = fine. > >=20 > > But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with = and I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was = much difference. While the results on my screen were different, I = wouldn=E2=80=99t say they were better or even more accurate=E2=80=A6 it = was fun for an hour or so but I won=E2=80=99t pretend I learned much. = Certainly I don=E2=80=99t really know the difference between Adobe RGB, = Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc. And while I understand the basics of = colour management and a =E2=80=9Cworking space=E2=80=9D I have wondered = if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins. > >=20 > > So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on = setting the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and = if that could lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, = etc etc. > >=20 > > -Chris > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to > >=20 >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to > --Apple-Mail=_46166C50-34F8-4167-87CB-8BBD88C143B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks for the replies.  I enjoyed that article & = website, it confirmed/ reassured a few hunches I had.

On 13 Oct 2017, at 7:58 am, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

The film = I=E2=80=99m working in is mostly 32-bit ProPhotoRGB (started that way as = it way Adobe=E2=80=99s D-Cinema suggestion years ago and have to = maintain it now). Some projects linear, some not.
 
I do = timelapses in 16-bit AdobeRGB (camera is set to AdobeRGB).
 
best,
Stephen
 
stephen van vuuren
336.202.4777
 
http://www.insaturnsrings.com/
http://www.sv2dcp.com/
http://www.sv2studios.com/
 
A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music = than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The = theme, what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes = later.
=E2=80=93Stanley = Kubrick
 
From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] 
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 = 9:45 AM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces = other than sRGB
 
In theory, working in sRGB with a = floating point pipeline makes the gamut unbounded; that is, because you = can represent RGB values below 0 and above 1, you can reach colors that = would normally fall outside of the sRGB gamut, so you should not be = clipping color anywhere by using sRGB as your working space at = 32bpc.
 
However, your choice of working space doesn't = just define the gamut -- it also relates the RGB values the computer = uses to the colors we see. Two different spaces may use different RGB = values to represent the same color. Since image processing is math based = on these numbers, your choice of working space affects how the tools you = use affect the image. Changing the working space after you've done some = work will give you different -- sometimes very different -- results, = because the numbers don't mean the same thing anymore.
 
The= good news is that if you're working in a color-managed pipeline and = stick to sRGB as your one working space, what you see is what you = get. The bad news is that the tools don't behave as you might expect = with colors that exceed the normal gamut. And of course, any non-float = tool will break stuff.
 
If you want to get a little nerdy:
 
TLDR; Adobe recommends working in the widest space that = you intend to output. I think that's pretty solid advice.
 
(I'm not a color scientist, but sometimes I play = one on the Internet.)

walter soyka =E2=96=BC keen live 
 
On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:58 AM, J Bills <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I = love how Nuke handles this."  As far as simplicity/elegance of the = float implementation, coupled with speed.
 
Float is hard in = AE.  Render times spike, effects are still stuck in 16/8.  = Color management is complicated in AE.  Or at least, relatively = so.
 
When I teach this = section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into the students the = importance of planning - getting output specs in place from the start = and letting that drive many of the decisions.  Thinking in terms of = acquisition, viewing and output.  Taking the path of least = resistance wherever possible.  They definitely know how to properly = work in float and settings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things = like that, but they also know the cost involved and, to quote Kenny = Rodgers, "know when to run."  Staying 8 bit and keeping things = simple can sometimes be a big sanity boost, all things considered.
 
For me = personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when grading a = feature that's cinema bound.  In Resolve.  Sometimes it makes = sense to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and = change the monitors over and that whole dance.  It's involved = enough that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but there was one = recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of = bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, = where I went ahead with a P3 native grade.  I do think it made a = difference and I could pick the p3 monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge = situation.  There are definitely colors not reproduceable, if the = material is flashy enough.
 
But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to = work extended gamut, often times there's something to be said for just = sticking in the same colorspace as your audience and making your = decisions there, even if it is dumbed down from what you could = potentially be looking at.  Although, if you really want to impress = a client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't...  = maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know.
 
You know, those = rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't help but think = that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the lowest = denominator TVs can show a wider range.  We'll realize how color = challenged we once were.
 
 
 
From: After = Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> on behalf of Chris Zwar = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 = 3:53 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces = other than sRGB
 
I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to work = out the best technical approach to working with HDR footage in a 32-bit = project (usually linear).  While I=E2=80=99m interested to know if = there are benefits to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have = often had a hunch that if you have beautiful HDR footage or renders and = you want to work in 32-bit float, then sRGB is going to handicap the = process somehow...

> On 12 Oct 2017, at = 9:49 am, Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
> 
> Hi = all,
> 
> Just = wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB or = Rec709.  I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much = thought, and for the types of content I often work on that has been = fine.
> 
> But a = few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with and I was = experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was much = difference.  While the results on my screen were different, I = wouldn=E2=80=99t say they were better or even more accurate=E2=80=A6 it = was fun for an hour or so but I won=E2=80=99t pretend I learned = much.  Certainly I don=E2=80=99t really know the difference between = Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc.  And while I = understand the basics of colour management and a =E2=80=9Cworking = space=E2=80=9D I have wondered if choosing something non-standard will = adversely affect plugins.
> 
> So just = wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on setting the = working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and if that could = lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, etc etc.
> 
> -Chris
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>


+---End of message---+
To = unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>

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