From: "Chris Zwar" Received: from mail-pf0-f171.google.com ([209.85.192.171] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 6337291 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 01:16:21 +0200 Received: by mail-pf0-f171.google.com with SMTP id a8so13984064pfc.0 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 16:18:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chriszwar-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=76eaJE7VQo0PYNVwLRN/3hcVF9xTF2XWKlOazyXrEcM=; b=R5SL/BmcXmnyGMle/SBiir5ZQ4/M0iqilBthPrTFjYxcGY0xScuMVCj5WUegJUBaBF MN8yPr+j/teCBFwrsFGgMecqmNwbdsVj8zo7UH8PncIMR74C1BiU9X7bN9jGM0XbTn0h cRhTX4qW5GHZEqGcza5yS44fSWf+EbGShbZCpm0li/BZy7jVTUsXggY4JJJYIdBQdW9b egZS5wYuWoRdXu7K4Ctked/hyYXAKmM/Oi5Q9iocT1XAYU62xFOEs4mTbbKkNZeFzFxY C37FA8ZW3IMNj0I1dFBPJ9mz7C6nuUVCLXuJQSxKwJNodTLd/jds6ywciBSI91oVJ+aR fxpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=76eaJE7VQo0PYNVwLRN/3hcVF9xTF2XWKlOazyXrEcM=; b=h9xfrbDD5yAYKhTHSNB/u8CAEJSiK68gfTAsyHFNNsoYmjInaCDbpDJGoDJuQ1mgSF N0BC+JkC2IkMfLOBIhcIhI7jnFLozq4kY8yBX+l8ZlwW6FhxRVLH7wC8dAScyW1Z5+fw REOjTDfST86lIeOevUJTO2TF0kOJKrqn5iF2GzPJpwmtbQm96elfbIrcrEtdNQRl3T3W TcR4BVU95A5CEzH9kEcfpCYptSVf/XIyWPuyoX0A6cc9/M+87fduBGD/x1Al8S6Pd+5B uXl7BGFPS95iOaqp9wVd32OFZnz0nsXfhjsv5qfFHrzPGo+Vadhp+NX8DN5PueVIdTVT NeEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXHtpbkEDZtvhyT3P4y0TirPC36fywtFuJ/bcqAxvgISlpJ/rx6 HhoqALT93eZH4d412LVy2InI5QecTfA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QClZSm3fMaSuhurLD9DoyeTz0M+z75ZFBp6MWuYsiT1xEgoaJfEmX1vhFXUHPN4VFj95vVy6g== X-Received: by 10.99.116.89 with SMTP id e25mr6602599pgn.218.1508109512785; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 16:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.0.155] (7.130.233.220.static.exetel.com.au. [220.233.130.7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m16sm10597743pgn.76.2017.10.15.16.18.29 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 15 Oct 2017 16:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_33439C18-A3D9-4F24-8CE2-AB4C0E3717D0" Message-Id: <8FB554F7-19A7-4BEE-88C5-6C2E6683C33B@chriszwar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 10:18:27 +1100 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) --Apple-Mail=_33439C18-A3D9-4F24-8CE2-AB4C0E3717D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks, always good to have something new to read. In this case I=E2=80=99m not worried about workflow or any delivery = requirements, I was just wondering if working spaces were analogous to = bit depth in terms of technical quality. For example, even if you are = delivering an 8 bit file, there are clear and demonstrable benefits to = working in 16 or 32 bit. So I was wondering if the same is true for = working spaces - even if you are delivering sRGB, are there benefits to = working in something wider? In this case, it appears the analogy does = not hold up and if you=E2=80=99re delivery sRGB, then best to work in = sRGB. I did have a friend working on a feature asking if I knew anything about = ACES workflow, and I was ashamed to say I=E2=80=99d never even heard of = it! There=E2=80=99s a bullet I=E2=80=99ve managed to avoid so far=E2=80=A6= -Chris > On 16 Oct 2017, at 1:14 am, Teddy Gage = wrote: >=20 > Just to echo this - the free OCIO workflow may help save you from some = gray hairs and high blood pressure, since it's the inverse of AE's = native color workflow - You only manage color on the layers that need it=20= >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:58 AM, J Bills > wrote: > These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how = Nuke handles this." As far as simplicity/elegance of the float = implementation, coupled with speed. >=20 > Float is hard in AE. Render times spike, effects are still stuck in = 16/8. Color management is complicated in AE. Or at least, relatively = so. >=20 > When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into = the students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place = from the start and letting that drive many of the decisions. Thinking = in terms of acquisition, viewing and output. Taking the path of least = resistance wherever possible. They definitely know how to properly work = in float and settings to choose for usual srgb viewing and things like = that, but they also know the cost involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, = "know when to run." Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can = sometimes be a big sanity boost, all things considered. >=20 > For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when = grading a feature that's cinema bound. In Resolve. Sometimes it makes = sense to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color session, and = change the monitors over and that whole dance. It's involved enough = that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but there was one = recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, with lots of = bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes all shot raw, = where I went ahead with a P3 native grade. I do think it made a = difference and I could pick the p3 monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge = situation. There are definitely colors not reproduceable, if the = material is flashy enough. >=20 > But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work = extended gamut, often times there's something to be said for just = sticking in the same colorspace as your audience and making your = decisions there, even if it is dumbed down from what you could = potentially be looking at. Although, if you really want to impress a = client or director and show colors the "other shops" don't... maybe you = flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't know. >=20 > You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't = help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the = lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range. We'll realize how color = challenged we once were. >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: After Effects Mail List > on behalf of Chris Zwar = > > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than sRGB > =20 > I forgot to add that my main interest in asking is to work out the = best technical approach to working with HDR footage in a 32-bit project = (usually linear). While I=E2=80=99m interested to know if there are = benefits to basic motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had = a hunch that if you have beautiful HDR footage or renders and you want = to work in 32-bit float, then sRGB is going to handicap the process = somehow... >=20 > > On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar > wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB = or Rec709. I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much = thought, and for the types of content I often work on that has been = fine. > >=20 > > But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with = and I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was = much difference. While the results on my screen were different, I = wouldn=E2=80=99t say they were better or even more accurate=E2=80=A6 it = was fun for an hour or so but I won=E2=80=99t pretend I learned much. = Certainly I don=E2=80=99t really know the difference between Adobe RGB, = Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc. And while I understand the basics of = colour management and a =E2=80=9Cworking space=E2=80=9D I have wondered = if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins. > >=20 > > So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on = setting the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and = if that could lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, = etc etc. > >=20 > > -Chris > > +---End of message---+ > > To unsubscribe send any message to > >=20 >=20 > +---End of message---+ > To unsubscribe send any message to > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > _____________________________ > Teddy Gage > President > Shotgun Inc. > 360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX > SHOTGUNPOST.COM > BKLYN NY 11215 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_33439C18-A3D9-4F24-8CE2-AB4C0E3717D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks, always good to have something new to read.

In this case I=E2=80=99m = not worried about workflow or any delivery requirements, I was just = wondering if working spaces were analogous to bit depth in terms of = technical quality.  For example, even if you are delivering an 8 = bit file, there are clear and demonstrable benefits to working in 16 or = 32 bit.  So I was wondering if the same is true for working spaces = - even if you are delivering sRGB, are there benefits to working in = something wider? In this case, it appears the analogy does not hold up = and if you=E2=80=99re delivery sRGB, then best to work in = sRGB.

I did = have a friend working on a feature asking if I knew anything about ACES = workflow, and I was ashamed to say I=E2=80=99d never even heard of it! =  There=E2=80=99s a bullet I=E2=80=99ve managed to avoid so = far=E2=80=A6

-Chris


On 16 Oct 2017, at 1:14 am, Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Just to echo this - the free OCIO workflow may help save you = from some gray hairs and high blood pressure, since it's the inverse of = AE's native color workflow - You only manage color on the layers that = need it 


On Thu, = Oct 12, 2017 at 5:58 AM, J Bills <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
These conversations should usually start (and end) with "I love how Nuke = handles this."  As far as simplicity/elegance of the float = implementation, coupled with speed.

Float is hard in AE.  Render times spike, effects are still stuck = in 16/8.  Color management is complicated in AE.  Or at least, = relatively so.

When I teach this section of my AE college class, I try to hammer into = the students the importance of planning - getting output specs in place = from the start and letting that drive many of the decisions.  = Thinking in terms of acquisition, viewing and output.  Taking the path of least resistance wherever possible.  They = definitely know how to properly work in float and settings to choose for = usual srgb viewing and things like that, but they also know the cost = involved and, to quote Kenny Rodgers, "know when to run."  Staying 8 bit and keeping things simple can sometimes be a big sanity = boost, all things considered.

For me personally, the extended gamut only comes into play when grading = a feature that's cinema bound.  In Resolve.  Sometimes it = makes sense to go ahead and flip into P3 vs rec709 for the color = session, and change the monitors over and that whole dance.  It's involved enough that I won't do it for dramas or like romcoms, but = there was one recently that was kind of a Scott Pilgrim type of film, = with lots of bright colors and clubby laser tag type of in-game scenes = all shot raw, where I went ahead with a P3 native grade.  I do think it made a difference and I could pick the p3 = monitor vs srgb in a pepsi challenge situation.  There are = definitely colors not reproduceable, if the material is flashy = enough.

But in the end, even if you've got the monitor firepower to work = extended gamut, often times there's something to be said for just = sticking in the same colorspace as your audience and making your = decisions there, even if it is dumbed down from what you could potentially be looking at.  Although, if you really want to = impress a client or director and show colors the "other shops" = don't...  maybe you flip that switch to higher gamut, I don't = know.

You know, those rec2020 "HDR" monitors are such a gimmick, but I can't = help but think that it will be nice when everyone levels up and even the = lowest denominator TVs can show a wider range.  We'll realize how = color challenged we once were.



From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> on behalf of Chris Zwar = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:53 PM
= To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Working spaces other than = sRGB
 
I forgot to add that my = main interest in asking is to work out the best technical approach to = working with HDR footage in a 32-bit project (usually linear).  = While I=E2=80=99m interested to know if there are benefits to basic = motion graphics and normal HD video, I have often had a hunch that if you have = beautiful HDR footage or renders and you want to work in 32-bit float, = then sRGB is going to handicap the process somehow...

> On 12 Oct 2017, at 9:49 am, Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering if/when anyone uses a working space other than sRGB = or Rec709.  I have always set it to sRGB without giving it too much = thought, and for the types of content I often work on that has been = fine.
>
> But a few months ago I had some lovely 6K Log footage to play with = and I was experimenting with other working spaces to see if there was = much difference.  While the results on my screen were different, I = wouldn=E2=80=99t say they were better or even more accurate=E2=80=A6 it was fun for an hour or so but I won=E2=80=99t pretend I learned = much.  Certainly I don=E2=80=99t really know the difference between = Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, Wide Gamut RGB etc etc.  And while I = understand the basics of colour management and a =E2=80=9Cworking = space=E2=80=9D I have wondered if choosing something non-standard will adversely affect plugins.
>
> So just wondering if anyone else has more technical insight on = setting the working space to something other than sRGB (or Rec709) and = if that could lead to technical improvements in quality when grading, = etc etc.
>
> -Chris
> +---End of message---+
> To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>


+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>



--
_____________________________
Teddy Gage
President
Shotgun = Inc.
360 VR | MOGRAPH | = VFX
SHOTGUNPOST.COM
BKLYN NY 11215


= --Apple-Mail=_33439C18-A3D9-4F24-8CE2-AB4C0E3717D0--