From: "Roei Tzoref" Received: from mail-it0-f47.google.com ([209.85.214.47] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 6445279 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 04 May 2018 09:27:45 +0200 Received: by mail-it0-f47.google.com with SMTP id c3-v6so2301980itj.4 for ; Fri, 04 May 2018 00:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GXe00qmu9rY1ziMz5ptvsk90vI/xhT4/AUk+t67D0wI=; b=G3v9A0zROnDBcTRXkHE2u6yLnj6c/YOk554SvXWctq1XrW9oudlqQaQnFBB1OFaQru 0Oi4KgUkE2SCbVUcy7I0PnmU/+UsgzWWUiAe+78apPIQpStEKS5je/cozYSYNtou9nTY 2m5naV72gPp+bLrNWoJA4NIn/oZKcjNxRSaTw2bT8DhwuqAtj00TjjEpeNFTbhL/xsy2 kDGwK9niPk5f8iAwA6A3cCgqmn8WBFm9ZVaMpft6fAIAHQA7Hv4toY9lIoXDJv8BEZFM ENBYerYBXjjpC4i9SFNRP9g1w8ntdHa1l/0WQdmu/jnQj7w868RxMISf9094LNpNVeFm lnjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=GXe00qmu9rY1ziMz5ptvsk90vI/xhT4/AUk+t67D0wI=; b=VXd8+zxNwiVZiF59rsxu7Tj1XqoPW4rPrXOI5Gk7u13u/+FnFt21+yY/lV5xqHUwWa us3kPFE0/5x1gsNQagRjLAU9JIoOyYKa8e9cT8hqsasPgGTvTy5L+mj523UFEEhBchWt q2jV6DjG7NFHiI5thBdgKjo8LMfTdx4WLmR77pJ16rQTqdyI+8KhRsKMIPEAKFFO7jv+ tYgCOkOYeGwXLEi1AH1K3nY1BRZSDXQYTLvF1XlvzDcn0bEB3q2dOjEfRJLEzd+7eIer WC+XkQLfs8CxMKNf9gkZ4eT3stvGTgxlFOwm2gHNB4dOv5AI+l11cHwYjTs6aHb38vy4 vNQg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAssWCejUiq9toJTv3OdKK2V8s8UdbwrdKTthSuYY2BgL/e7sn7 5Il2TAKrsxC6jcHWyd7PrGn9nsxE7LkamXu6Ucs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZo1IP4Ja6vC4ezpMCGt4tIMFXe8yZbbQJvFxWJPSCvIB/5j/JVfyrIpIv0TRjPPXOBj88tgneZpffXEJ3nDZZ0= X-Received: by 2002:a24:a90d:: with SMTP id r13-v6mr26782623ite.119.1525419230976; Fri, 04 May 2018 00:33:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Date: Fri, 04 May 2018 07:33:40 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] updating and compatibility To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000655d76056b5c57f1" --000000000000655d76056b5c57f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Edit: before AfterCodecs, I used AME to render H.264 - which is a playback format of course , not delivery. I always use Ae to render delivery formats (unless I am in Premiere...). On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 10:22 Roei Tzoref wrote: > I never used H264 on QT because the quality is poor and size could reach > x10 times over AME's H.264. When CC2014 came and took my native H.264 in > Ae, and my yellow U.I color, I did not update and only a year later, when > the U.I looked better, came to terms with using AME for mp4 (and the blue > color) and it worked well and actually made me work faster since I could > render delivery formats and keep working. It's not as fast per render > that's true. > > A year ago when AfterCodecs came out, I immediately purchased and sent al= l > my feature requests to Antoine the developer. Using that in Ae for fast, > small size, great quality mp4 like the old days. > > Now with many codecs missing, a part of me is relieved for narrowing the > options so I could focus only on a few. > > QT Png was my best friend because I rendered graphics on alpha for short > durations and had to deliver lossless online - it's the best > compression/quality ratio you can get. But it's the slowest.. now that it= 's > gone, after some testing, I switched to AfterCodec's ProRes 4444. They sa= y > in the FAQ you should not use it for broadcast, but I give my stuff to > editors and it seems to work just fine. Small size, lossless quality, and > 10bit. > > Animation still is the fastest and reliable 8bit option and in a news > station I work on, that's what the use to transfer graphics to the editor= s. > 8 bit is fine since there is no color correction or any other further ima= ge > manipulation. > > When I need to send video from Ae to further processing (color mostly), I > got used to DNx and my editor's work with it too. I also send AfterCodec'= s > ProRes422 HQ preset at times. > > For Digital intermediate, I might use Cineform4. > > For sequence, I shifted to using DPX over PNG (I may have waited way too > long to do that) > > Mantaining compatibilty with old projects can be annoying, but I keep old > versions of Ae. CC2017 is my backup version for these things if I need to > open a project that uses legacy codecs. I might transcode if I want to us= e > the new features. > > That's about it. I feel I am covered. > > On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 5:07 Steve Oakley wrote: > >> thats where we where going with MOX which remains in beta status. >> documented, no patent encumbrances, source code available, already uses >> industry *open* standards like MXF as container. >> >> endless conversations adobe should create and release basically this, so >> a community took this on. really what it needs is testing, maybe some >> tweaks, and better adoption. >> >> otherwise h.264 and Mpeg2 are as close as we get to universal codecs. >> h.264 iframe 10/12 bit 444 is certainly respectable. >> >> as for legacy codecs=E2=80=A6 many of the big ones are supported like DV= 25 / 50 >> /100, Mpeg2, Animation. PhotoJpeg, Mjpeg A and B would be welcome >> additions. after that, who knows. do we really need or want to see cinep= ak >> movs of some corp video from 1992 ? >> >> the warnings have been out for YEARS this time was coming. I converted a >> lot of stuff a couple years ago, and even in the last few months found a= nd >> converted a bunch of old mov files. that said, SD on a 4K screen is a >> postage stamp of bad quality, never mind a few odd 320 movs. those I >> actually deleted. even the broadcast stuff I had from the late 90=E2=80= =99s now >> kind of doesn=E2=80=99t matter much and isn=E2=80=99t so watchable anymo= re=E2=80=A6 well you want >> to see 98 degrees first national TV appearance ? thats was on my reel bu= t I >> don=E2=80=99t think its so entertaining anymore, nor do I show it or mos= t of the >> stuff I worked on even with big names in it from that era just because i= t >> looks pretty crappy now. >> >> S >> >> > On May 3, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Stephen van Vuuren >> wrote: >> > >> > Adobe and other media companies (Avid etc.) should have pressed hard >> that the core codecs used in media files from Apple, Dolby, Microsoft et= c. >> should have some type of open source decode/encode for future digital >> preservation. >> > >> > We are not just talking about client files on commercial jobs which is >> a pain. There is massive amount of material (films, television shows, >> documentaries, personal memories) created with those codecs and combine >> that with the poorly thought out rush to dump physical media means there >> will be likely be a greater loss of original masters than in the flammab= le >> film days. >> > >> > Only people who've thought to output films to DCP format (JPEG2000 is >> archival quality and open sourced or a physical non-encrypted format - n= on >> copy protected bluray is about as good as what can be had there as other >> than 35mm film, there is no high resolution, high color depth physical >> media. >> > >> > A ProRes or Avid file is not a master - those codecs could well suffer >> the same fates in 10, 20, 30 years. >> > >> > This is a huge stick our head in the sands problem that will never go >> away, only get worse. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: After Effects Mail List >> > Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 8:23 PM >> > To: After Effects Mail List >> > Subject: Re: [AE] updating and compatibility >> > >> > Apple can be especially uncool. Dolby is on my list too. >> > >> > >> > On 5/3/2018 8:02 PM, Steve Oakley wrote: >> >> blame apple then as they are the gulity party in killing off QT32 and >> an codecs which are implemented via QT32. Adobe is simply keeping their = app >> current wiith what the OS can, or in this case can=E2=80=99t deliver. >> >> >> >> S >> >> >> >> >> +---End of message---+ >> To unsubscribe send any message to >> > --000000000000655d76056b5c57f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*Edit: before AfterCodecs, I used AME to render H.26= 4 - which is a playback format of course , not delivery. I always use Ae to= render delivery formats (unless I am in Premiere...).=C2=A0

On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 10:22 Roei Tzoref <yooofi@gmail.com> wrote:
I never used H264 on QT= because the quality is poor and size could reach x10 times over AME's = H.264. When CC2014 came and took my native H.264 in Ae, and my yellow U.I c= olor, I did not update and only a year later, when the U.I looked better, c= ame to terms with using AME for mp4 (and the blue color) and it worked well= and actually made me work faster since I could render delivery formats and= keep working. It's not as fast per render that's true.

A year ago when AfterCodecs came ou= t, I immediately purchased and sent all my feature requests to Antoine the = developer. Using that in Ae for fast, small size, great quality mp4 like th= e old days.

Now with man= y codecs missing, a part of me is relieved for narrowing the options so I c= ould focus only on a few.=C2=A0

QT Png was my best friend because I rendered graphics on alpha fo= r short durations and had to deliver lossless online - it's the best co= mpression/quality ratio you can get. But it's the slowest.. now that it= 's gone, after some testing, I switched to AfterCodec's ProRes 4444= . They say in the FAQ you should not use it for broadcast, but I give my st= uff to editors and it seems to work just fine. Small size, lossless quality= , and 10bit.

Animation s= till is the fastest and reliable 8bit option and in a news station I work o= n, that's what the use to transfer graphics to the editors. 8 bit is fi= ne since there is no color correction or any other further image manipulati= on.=C2=A0

When I need to= send video from Ae to further processing (color mostly), I got used to DNx= and my editor's work with it too. I also send AfterCodec's ProRes4= 22 HQ preset at times.=C2=A0

For Digital intermediate, I might use Cineform4.=C2=A0

For sequence, I shifted to using DPX = over PNG (I may have waited way too long to do that)

Mantaining compatibilty with old projects can = be annoying, but I keep old versions of Ae. CC2017 is my backup version for= these things if I need to open a project that uses legacy codecs. I might = transcode if I want to use the new features.=C2=A0
<= br>
That's about it. I feel I am covered.
<= br>
On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 5:07 Steve Oakley = <AE-List@media-motion.tv&= gt; wrote:
thats where we where goi= ng with MOX which remains in beta status. documented, no patent encumbrance= s, source code available, already uses industry *open* standards like MXF a= s container.

endless conversations adobe should create and release basically this, so a = community took this on. really what it needs is testing, maybe some tweaks,= and better adoption.

otherwise h.264 and Mpeg2 are as close as we get to universal codecs. h.264= iframe 10/12 bit 444 is certainly respectable.

as for legacy codecs=E2=80=A6 many of the big ones are supported like DV25 = / 50 /100, Mpeg2, Animation. PhotoJpeg, Mjpeg A and B would be welcome addi= tions. after that, who knows. do we really need or want to see cinepak movs= of some corp video from 1992 ?

the warnings have been out for YEARS this time was coming. I converted a lo= t of stuff a couple years ago, and even in the last few months found and co= nverted a bunch of old mov files. that said, SD on a 4K screen is a postage= stamp of bad quality, never mind a few odd 320 movs. those I actually dele= ted. even the broadcast stuff I had from the late 90=E2=80=99s now kind of = doesn=E2=80=99t matter much and isn=E2=80=99t so watchable anymore=E2=80=A6= well you want to see 98 degrees first national TV appearance ? thats was o= n my reel but I don=E2=80=99t think its so entertaining anymore, nor do I s= how it or most of the stuff I worked on even with big names in it from that= era just because it looks pretty crappy now.

S

> On May 3, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> w= rote:
>
> Adobe and other media companies (Avid etc.) should have pressed hard t= hat the core codecs used in media files from Apple, Dolby, Microsoft etc. s= hould have some type of open source decode/encode for future digital preser= vation.
>
> We are not just talking about client files on commercial jobs which is= a pain. There is massive amount of material (films, television shows, docu= mentaries, personal memories) created with those codecs and combine that wi= th the poorly thought out rush to dump physical media means there will be l= ikely be a greater loss of original masters than in the flammable film days= .
>
> Only people who've thought to output films to DCP format (JPEG2000= is archival quality and open sourced or a physical non-encrypted format - = non copy protected bluray is about as good as what can be had there as othe= r than 35mm film, there is no high resolution, high color depth physical me= dia.
>
> A ProRes or Avid file is not a master - those codecs could well suffer= the same fates in 10, 20, 30 years.
>
> This is a huge stick our head in the sands problem that will never go = away, only get worse.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
> Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 8:23 PM
> To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
> Subject: Re: [AE] updating and compatibility
>
> Apple can be especially uncool. Dolby is on my list too.
>
>
> On 5/3/2018 8:02 PM, Steve Oakley wrote:
>> blame apple then as they are the gulity party in killing off QT32 = and an codecs which are implemented via QT32. Adobe is simply keeping their= app current wiith what the OS can, or in this case can=E2=80=99t deliver.<= br> >>
>> S
>>


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