From: "Dennis Wilkins" Received: from biz127.inmotionhosting.com ([23.235.213.68] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7175995 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 02:50:12 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=reelsolutions.com; s=default; h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:To:References:Date: Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=BNYHSCT18Fas9uZpuFBIWS0nXOSBxyWpJ7ForVcl6/E=; b=aVL+GiubdSuCZL85jBH5jeXW+ n+2OwJ31PPe3DwOz+dhSw3n+1Jc7W+5W2U/mKjboyW4TYYwHDZLx+v0wy2CkzW6MOK++I2VhV+dDA ulUmtgLC7enCKK6NxcrS5buG8MviCyo+M3gJEYkqBDIredmWqDPzxLdv52gr1a8ZNT4nI=; Received: from [73.222.249.170] (port=32957 helo=[192.168.1.92]) by biz127.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gDJAd-005ieW-7U for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 18:02:02 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7D0BCE01-4E6C-48AC-B54C-100DB4B87EFB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Uservoice feedback website - Top post - Full Program. Mutli-Threaded Support Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 18:01:42 -0700 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz127.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - media-motion.tv X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - reelsolutions.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz127.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: dennis@reelsolutions.com X-Authenticated-Sender: biz127.inmotionhosting.com: dennis@reelsolutions.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: --Apple-Mail=_7D0BCE01-4E6C-48AC-B54C-100DB4B87EFB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Adobe has very little competition in their space=E2=80=A6. Exactly. (This is directed at the higher management and miscellaneous = beancounters at Adobe, not the development team). We=E2=80=99re all basically addicts of Adobe at this point and pay = $50-80 per month because we have to. Since they have a captive user = base, their main financial interest is in keeping their shareholders = happy - they don=E2=80=99t need to improve the product because motion = graphics artists don=E2=80=99t have any viable options where the = benefits outweigh the costs involved with leaving the Adobe tent and = they know it. Remember when Adobe told the users they were going to a subscription = model so they could innovate faster and not be tied down by designated = release schedules? This year AE got some improved puppet tools and improved templates=E2=80=A6= Last year we got templates (which I=E2=80=99ve never used) and they = bought and added in some VR plugins from a 3rd party and made it sound = like it was something huge (most people working on VR projects had = already bought the plugins - including me, but I digress)=E2=80=A6 There = have been other improvements and some plug-ins have gotten a lot faster = individually but for the most part, the updates have been pretty minor. = The RAM preview in the latest 2-3 versions is broken imho; I constantly = have audio dropouts and sync issues, random dropping frames (don=E2=80=99t= even try to playback 4k@32bit - even with color management turned off). I=E2=80=99m curious - Is anybody using templates in a cool way? To me it = looks like a feature that some big news organizations fought for so they = could get rid of some of their motion graphics staff - but maybe I=E2=80=99= m just getting cynical in my old age. Plug-ins breaking - really? Maxon just released a new version of C4D = that is crazy good with tons of powerful new tools and workflow = enhancers; it broke everything and most plug-ins were ready out of the = gate (others have beta versions and will release final versions soon). = The few that are gone will probably be replaced at some point by newer = better tools - and I=E2=80=99ll use the old ones in an older version of = C4D if I have to. In 2014, people complained about how bad the multi-processing was = because a lot of times it only used about 35-45% of your CPU resources; = BG renderer basically came out because of how bad it was and now we talk = about the good old days of AE 2014. (To it's credit, I=E2=80=99ve = rendered projects out of AE 2014 up to 3x faster than the same project = renders in the current versions). It=E2=80=99s not that AE 2014 was so = good, it=E2=80=99s just that the current versions are so bad. Adobe is making somewhere around 5-6 billion dollars per year from the = Creative Cloud side of their business...=20 - Dennis Wilkins > On Oct 18, 2018, at 5:11 PM, Rw wrote: >=20 > Adobe has very little competition in their space. There are legions of = users who have invested years and serious money in their products. For = example, I=E2=80=99ve been an After Effects user since v1.3. Photoshop = and Illustrator even longer. When Apple derailed FCP - and Premiere was = sufficiently debugged at the time - I was all-in with Adobe. They got = me. There is no real competition for them in motion = graphicsediting/image manipulation, and even if there were I would not = be likely to switch. Too much time and money invested in what basically = works. The subscription model gives Adobe license to print money with no = incentive to invest what it would take to rewrite code from the ground = up. If they were threatened with losing market share, maybe. But = that=E2=80=99s not happening at the moment and it would take a few years = for a newcomer to grab enough new users to make a dent. Adobe=E2=80=99s = allegiance is to shareholders, not users. >=20 > So I would not hold my breath waiting for massive performance = improvement. It would be great if I turned out to be wrong about all = this. >=20 > Get Outlook for iOS >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:53 PM -0700, "Jim Tierney" = > wrote: >=20 > =20 > >> However, it would break every current plugin > =20 > Yeah, that happens periodically. It recently happened with Premiere. = However, you might not have noticed it because Adobe gave us lots of = warning and most third parties had updates ready. As long as host = developers don=E2=80=99t do this type of thing too often and give us = plenty of notice, it=E2=80=99s not a huge problem (although companies = with plugin bundles with 900 plugins might disagree). Among the many = problems of the FCP 7 -> X transition was that plugin developers were as = surprised by the release as everyone else. Zero communication from Apple = that anything was changing (they are better these days). Adobe has = always been pretty good about giving us fair warning of major API = changes. > =20 > =20 > >> that it would loosen the rules publicly traded companies need to = adhere to. You can=E2=80=99t use that excuse any more, Adobe. > =20 > It loosened the rules about releasing new features and requiring there = be a paid upgrade. Announcing =E2=80=98Funding secured=E2=80=99 or some = cool feature and not following through with it, can still get companies = in trouble. Just ask the former chairman of Tesla. ;-) > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > Jim > ------------------- > Jim Tierney > President > Digital Anarchy > =20 > =20 > =20 > =C2=A0 <> > From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 1:50 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Uservoice feedback website - Top post - Full = Program. Mutli-Threaded Support > =20 > You know RenderGarden is just a GUI wrapper for the AE native = command line rendering right? Adobe is already doing it. That's a very = different ask than threading everything in the app. And also, I would = argue, why waste resources on doing something that's already handled = quite well by a third party? People complain about the need for scripts = and plugins for AE but every single time I open the app I'm doing = something different, with a different workflow... I'm not sure I'd want = a core app that could do everything all the current scripts and plugins = do, but internally. It would be more unstable than Maya, which was = essentially its path of development. And impossible to support. =46rom = what I understand the AE team is not very big as these things go. Do I = think there's room for speed improvement? Absolutely. Do I want another = re-write of the core to break an app I use every day in production, = again, for modest speed gains? Not really. > -TG > =20 > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 4:29 PM Jonathan > wrote: > Um . . . I don=E2=80=99t get it. If RenderGarden can do it =E2=80=93 = and I=E2=80=99m a devoted fan =E2=80=93 why can=E2=80=99t Adobe? So = perhaps it=E2=80=99s not integrated as well as one might like, but you = don=E2=80=99t have to leave AE to use it and the result is seamless. It = runs in the background, uses as many cores as you like, can work across = machines, and can save huge amounts of time. > =20 > What am I missing? > =20 > =20 > Jonathan Penzner > Sundance/Realtime > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Gordon Mah > wrote: > =20 > Part of the rationale for going to a subscription model was that it = would loosen the rules publicly traded companies need to adhere to. You = can=E2=80=99t use that excuse any more, Adobe. > =20 > Break plugins? We can run a previous version in parallel, no? Sure = multi-threaded is tough, but I=E2=80=99d venture that 32-to-64 bit was = tougher. I=E2=80=99d gladly wait 2 yrs w/out new features if we knew = major core updates were coming. >=20 > =20 > --=20 > _____________________________ > Teddy Gage > President > Shotgun Inc. > 360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX > SHOTGUNPOST.COM > BKLYN NY 11215 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_7D0BCE01-4E6C-48AC-B54C-100DB4B87EFB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Adobe has very = little competition in their = space=E2=80=A6.

Exactly.

(This is directed at the higher management and miscellaneous = beancounters at Adobe, not the development team).
We=E2=80=99re all basically addicts of = Adobe at this point and pay $50-80 per month because we have to. Since = they have a captive user base, their main financial interest is in = keeping their shareholders happy - they don=E2=80=99t need to improve = the product because motion graphics artists don=E2=80=99t have any = viable options where the benefits outweigh the costs involved with = leaving the Adobe tent and they know it.

Remember when Adobe told the users they = were going to a subscription model so they could innovate faster and not = be tied down by designated release schedules?
This = year AE got some improved puppet tools and improved templates=E2=80=A6 = Last year we got templates (which I=E2=80=99ve never used) and they = bought and added in some VR plugins from a 3rd party and made it sound = like it was something huge (most people working on VR projects had = already bought the plugins - including me, but I digress)=E2=80=A6 There = have been other improvements and some plug-ins have gotten a lot faster = individually but for the most part, the updates have been pretty minor. = The RAM preview in the latest 2-3 versions is broken imho; I constantly = have audio dropouts and sync issues, random dropping frames (don=E2=80=99t= even try to playback 4k@32bit - even with color management turned = off).

I=E2=80=99= m curious - Is anybody using templates in a cool way? To me it looks = like a feature that some big news organizations fought for so they could = get rid of some of their motion graphics staff - but maybe I=E2=80=99m = just getting cynical in my old age.

Plug-ins breaking - really? Maxon just = released a new version of C4D that is crazy good with tons of powerful = new tools and workflow enhancers; it broke everything and most plug-ins = were ready out of the gate (others have beta versions and will release = final versions soon). The few that are gone will probably be replaced at = some point by newer better tools - and I=E2=80=99ll use the old ones in = an older version of C4D if I have to.

In 2014, people complained about how = bad the multi-processing was because a lot of times it only used about = 35-45% of your CPU resources; BG renderer basically came out because of = how bad it was and now we talk about the good old days of AE 2014. (To = it's credit, I=E2=80=99ve rendered projects out of AE 2014 up to 3x = faster than the same project renders in the current versions). It=E2=80=99= s not that AE 2014 was so good, it=E2=80=99s just that the current = versions are so bad.

Adobe is making somewhere around 5-6 billion = dollars per year from the Creative Cloud side of their = business... 


- Dennis = Wilkins




On Oct 18, 2018, at 5:11 PM, Rw <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Adobe has very little competition = in their space. There are legions of users who have invested years and = serious money in their products. For example, I=E2=80=99ve been an After = Effects user since v1.3. Photoshop and Illustrator even longer. When = Apple derailed FCP  - and Premiere was sufficiently debugged at the = time - I was all-in with Adobe. They got me. There is no real = competition for them in motion graphicsediting/image manipulation, and = even if there were I would not be likely to switch. Too much time and = money invested in what basically works. The subscription model gives = Adobe license to print money with no incentive to invest what it would = take to rewrite code from the ground up. If they were threatened with = losing market share, maybe. But that=E2=80=99s not happening at the = moment and it would take a few years for a newcomer to grab enough new = users to make a dent. Adobe=E2=80=99s allegiance is to shareholders, not = users.

So I would = not hold my breath waiting for massive performance improvement. It would = be great if I turned out to be wrong about all this.

Get Outlook for iOS



On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:53 PM -0700, "Jim = Tierney" <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

 
>> However, it would break = every current plugin
 
Yeah, that happens = periodically. It recently happened with Premiere. However, you might not = have noticed it because Adobe gave us lots of warning and most third = parties had updates ready. As long as host developers don=E2=80=99t do = this type of thing too often and give us plenty of notice, it=E2=80=99s = not a huge problem (although companies with plugin bundles with 900 = plugins might disagree). Among the many problems of the FCP 7 -> X = transition was that plugin developers were as surprised by the release = as everyone else. Zero communication from Apple that anything was = changing (they are better these days). Adobe has always been pretty good = about giving us fair warning of major API changes.
 
 
>> that it would loosen the = rules publicly traded companies need to adhere to.  You can=E2=80=99t= use that excuse any more, Adobe.
 
It loosened the rules = about releasing new features and requiring there be a paid upgrade. = Announcing =E2=80=98Funding secured=E2=80=99 or some cool feature and = not following through with it, can still get companies in trouble. Just = ask the former chairman of Tesla. ;-)
 
 
Cheers,
Jim
-------------------
Jim Tierney
President
Digital Anarchy
 
 
 
 
From: After = Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] 
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 = 1:50 PM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Uservoice feedback = website - Top post - Full Program. Mutli-Threaded Support
 
  You know = RenderGarden is just a GUI wrapper for the AE native command line = rendering right? Adobe is already doing it. That's a very different ask = than threading everything in the app. And also, I would argue, why waste = resources on doing something that's already handled quite well by a = third party? People complain about the need for scripts and plugins for = AE but every single time I open the app I'm doing something different, = with a different workflow... I'm not sure I'd want a core app that could = do everything all the current scripts and plugins do, but internally. It = would be more unstable than Maya, which was essentially its path of = development. And impossible to support. =46rom what I understand the AE = team is not very big as these things go. Do I think there's room for = speed improvement? Absolutely. Do I want another re-write of the core to = break an app I use every day in production, again, for modest speed = gains? Not really.
-TG
 
On Thu, Oct = 18, 2018 at 4:29 PM Jonathan <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:
Um . . . I don=E2=80=99t = get it. If RenderGarden can do it =E2=80=93 and I=E2=80=99m a devoted = fan =E2=80=93 why can=E2=80=99t Adobe? So perhaps it=E2=80=99s not = integrated as well as one might like, but you don=E2=80=99t have to = leave AE to use it and the result is seamless. It runs in the = background, uses as many cores as you like, can work across machines, = and can save huge amounts of time.
 
What am I missing?
 
 
Jonathan Penzner
Sundance/Realtime
 


On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Gordon Mah <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
 
Part of the rationale for going to a subscription model was = that it would loosen the rules publicly traded companies need to adhere = to.  You can=E2=80=99t use that excuse any more, Adobe.
 
Break = plugins?  We can run a previous version in parallel, no?  Sure = multi-threaded is tough, but I=E2=80=99d venture that 32-to-64 bit was = tougher.  I=E2=80=99d gladly wait 2 yrs w/out new features if we = knew major core updates were coming.
<= div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = "Times New Roman", serif;" class=3D"">
 
-- 
_____________________________
Teddy Gage
President
Shotgun Inc.
360 VR | MOGRAPH | = VFX
SHOTGUNPOST.COM

BKLYN NY = 11215


= --Apple-Mail=_7D0BCE01-4E6C-48AC-B54C-100DB4B87EFB--