From: "Rick Gerard" Received: from bosmailout10.eigbox.net ([66.96.186.10] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7188049 for ae-list@media-motion.tv; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 20:02:08 +0100 Received: from bosmailscan11.eigbox.net ([10.20.15.11]) by bosmailout10.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1gLCEt-0006uI-3F for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 14:14:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mstrg.com; s=dkim; h=Sender:Message-Id:In-Reply-To:To:References:Date:Subject: Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WnDMgowqQ1olffvZefR7D4Tj7H7g6BpQNB+HNBU3wws=; b=LXHXYmBPSnRCvgvQUagqv8rF/1 1uY6PB0ejK5NHZuV4l+Qv8ezERuFqSq6ELyFekNORox4ek4xgSaOQn8xNJzZlAx4zHjUGGaXiSsqR isJRyuEXeMVKf3rcIZ2vBdKhQy451aDryuOjOejnQNQ/ZjFVHJIJyP99ypmXucIVc8nmVwg1nqpZA oivDKUdGkQ1buPhy3wiPLLQniFFryUchYwwQzuzQtOFikblpQ4AJZdGDPz6czmhugXG5KG/bwUkvu tr4LbCF59j9QJMsB4Cxf27oc8PSUvgbWNFQsC2mjdOnrLbm3xxTk/dLbvfx+ssZv2kulNOr30CLyc 6oBBF1EA==; Received: from [10.115.3.33] (helo=bosimpout13) by bosmailscan11.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1gLCEs-00043n-Tv for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 14:14:42 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp11.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.11]) by bosimpout13 with id xvEf1y00M0EKspE01vEiNv; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 14:14:42 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=XsOKARN9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=anyYG9rjTBM1sAjEBQ8Cew==:117 a=+fNCsvVYfgsOWX7dqrClyQ==:17 a=JHtHm7312UAA:10 a=MOoPLM9SH6MA:10 a=9XY7_4NgAAAA:8 a=RqOAJGx8AAAA:8 a=GazFBABTAAAA:8 a=H32Fxnyba61iiazTrbIA:9 a=FQEmaH0CQZ0tvDWa6K0Z7W0SsEI=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=bBGdm89F9ToA:10 a=KzJxwlyEdFX6Gm8j7cIA:9 a=lICV6TMh3w61FLWp:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=bDIo21_nVYKPZMt3b0-h:22 a=2dckCFoST8samHM_Kv05:22 Received: from [69.4.147.69] (port=49844 helo=[192.168.1.4]) by bosauthsmtp11.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1gLCEp-0004Ac-IT for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 14:14:39 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DCDD921C-5D13-42E0-93B5-0EAEC440C403" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Subject: Re: [AE] smoothing out 24p Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 11:14:37 -0800 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3F1071B6-460D-45D6-A603-3965F59D1A34@mstrg.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) X-EN-UserInfo: c662172581359b31880c5d4c8e0aae06:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: rg@hottek.net Sender: Rick Gerard X-EN-OrigIP: 69.4.147.69 X-EN-OrigHost: unknown --Apple-Mail=_DCDD921C-5D13-42E0-93B5-0EAEC440C403 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Critical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They are = determined by frame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to do = with it also. I don=E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but here = is what I think is an accurate copy of the charts. http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm It=E2=80=99s important to remember that the focal lengths given in the = charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 mm cameras so the speed/focal = length recommendations would work with a video camera with an APS-C = sensor because it=E2=80=99s about the same size as a classic 35mm film = camera. Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other factors also gang up on video = cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The only perfect solution is to = follow the rules. > On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton = wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in camera = (usually an early HD camera during a pan rather than a film camera) and = judder to be what happens when animating in After Effects. Now that = they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interchangeably, maybe we need a new term = like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D? (I hope some else is laughing at that = like I am.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > -Warren >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis > wrote: >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m old and I don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I was = taught in film school is =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D I never heard of = =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80=9D until film started being transferred to tape = and then the tape was posted on tape. =20 >>=20 >> And we hated it! >>=20 >> :) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Rick Gerard > wrote: >>>=20 >>> There is a thing called critical pan speed. The combination of = movement, frame rate and retinal retention mean that any movement in the = frame that falls in the range of critical speeds will judder. The way to = reduce the problem is to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, = higher frame rates mean less motion blur and we like to have motion blur = so the footage looks more like a movie and less like a video.=20 >>>=20 >>> If you are stuck with problematic footage that was shot at 24 (or = any frame rate) you have two options. Change the timing of the shot, = which may result in audio problems or unnatural action, or force some = motion blur or use some software to generate extra frames to try and = hide the problem. All you have to do to change the timing is change the = interpretation of the footage (File>Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing = motion blur can be done with CC Force Motion blur, but really good = =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames can really only be generated with 3rd party = software. >>>=20 >>> Twixtor is really good at interpolating extra frames. If you want = more frames and you want the timing to stay the same then you have to = increase the frame rate of the comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use = something like Twixtor. Force Motion Blur will work when the frame rate = for the footage and the comp are the same, but the results are not as = good. >>>=20 >>> I hope this makes sense to you. The ASC handbook has had critical = panning speed tables in it for a zillion years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay = attention and check on the set it=E2=80=99s pretty easy to end up with = shots that can=E2=80=99t really be fixed in a pleasing way.=20 >>>=20 >>> Here are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ section of = the Adobe Forum on avoiding and overcoming the problem: >>> "Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by Rick Gerard = >>> "Best practices for creating text and vector graphics for video=E2=80=9D= = >>>=20 >>> I hope this helps. >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Following are I think your options: >>>> If you are dealing with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), = you could interpret your footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will = play a little faster at 29.97fps (duration will be shorter). >>>> If you are editing with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these = days other than for broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown = during your AE export. >>>> Otherwise you will have to recreate these missing frames one way or = another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like Twixtor... >>>>=20 >>>> David Baud >>>> Colorist & Finishing Editor >>>> david at kosmos-productions.com >>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't gotten = the solution yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a 29.97 = sequence. I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder frame = that is present when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. What's the = way to get this done? I feel like I've done it before. Checking the = frame blending box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing the speed of = the clip. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_DCDD921C-5D13-42E0-93B5-0EAEC440C403 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Critical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They = are determined by frame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to = do with it also. I don=E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but = here is what I think is an accurate copy of the charts.
http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm

It=E2=80=99s important to remember that = the focal lengths given in the charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 = mm cameras so the speed/focal length recommendations would work with a = video camera with an APS-C sensor because it=E2=80=99s about the same = size as a classic 35mm film camera.

Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other = factors also gang up on video cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The = only perfect solution is to follow the rules.

On Nov = 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in = camera (usually an early HD camera during a pan rather than a film = camera) and judder to be what happens when animating in After Effects. =  Now that they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interchangeably, maybe we = need a new term like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D?  (I hope some = else is laughing at that like I am.)



-Warren




On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m old and I = don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I was taught in film school is = =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D  I never heard of =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80=9D= until film started being transferred to tape and then the tape was = posted on tape.  

And we hated it!

:)



On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, = Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

There is a thing = called critical pan speed. The combination of movement, frame rate and = retinal retention mean that any movement in the frame that falls in the = range of critical speeds will judder. The way to reduce the problem is = to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, higher frame rates mean = less motion blur and we like to have motion blur so the footage looks = more like a movie and less like a video. 

If you are stuck with problematic = footage that was shot at 24 (or any frame rate) you have two options. = Change the timing of the shot, which may result in audio problems or = unnatural action, or force some motion blur or use some software to = generate extra frames to try and hide the problem. All you have to do to = change the timing is change the interpretation of the footage = (File>Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing motion blur can be done = with CC Force Motion blur, but really good =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames = can really only be generated with 3rd party software.

Twixtor is really good = at interpolating extra frames. If you want more frames and you want the = timing to stay the same then you have to increase the frame rate of the = comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use something like Twixtor. Force = Motion Blur will work when the frame rate for the footage and the comp = are the same, but the results are not as good.

I hope this makes sense to you. The ASC = handbook has had critical panning speed tables in it for a zillion = years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay attention and check on the set it=E2=80=99= s pretty easy to end up with shots that can=E2=80=99t really be fixed in = a pleasing way. 

Here are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ = section of the Adobe Forum on avoiding and overcoming the = problem:
"Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by Rick = Gerard
"Best practices for creating text and vector graphics for = video=E2=80=9D

I hope this helps.

On Nov = 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Following are I think your options:
If you are dealing = with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), you could interpret your = footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will play a little faster at = 29.97fps (duration will be shorter).
If you are editing = with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these days other than for = broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown during your AE = export.
Otherwise you will have to recreate these = missing frames one way or another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like = Twixtor...

David Baud
Colorist & = Finishing = Editor
david = at kosmos-productions.com

On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't = gotten the solution yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a = 29.97 sequence. I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder = frame that is present when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. = What's the way to get this done? I feel like I've done it before. = Checking the frame blending box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing = the speed of the clip.

Thanks





= --Apple-Mail=_DCDD921C-5D13-42E0-93B5-0EAEC440C403--