From: "Jim Curtis" Received: from sonic303-10.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.131.49] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTP id 7188056 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 20:46:44 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=flash.net; s=s2048; t=1541793559; bh=FN12ct+pho2+m7EIPls+X4d3ZSyPsDmRqHFbcPQFN3A=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=dQLmFc2lW6JjarWl3KgF3pOh/Esk4B4J+q6svzbaKj5fKylTbu4NHzwUBsI3ud88cg5ynMxlVgKpJN3DaUGZR7saBQ1e5m0d9pSOqs4JqwByVHPtcs/pbXUUt8yNJtU1qY6LxhR+6/HhPiZoNg77be0aIg8CdgjMFZ9KsHWYldr7fzyyQmwl7iySXr+b/KzXMZGFQasNM0rY7B54sb+LSvKcoar+y0X7iAenLPDyxyE5/uTdF/RAFwijtkt918b5sYS3AYZc6FD+Nv6C3C15gCOZmdrni2wkOzwZWPHvl1Fjak9I0DfR+II0peZMTGJhPrgLfkY111dbHUy/ESoSJA== X-YMail-OSG: ie.YbSYVM1l7WFvtYk5D103ksBWlWVix2nfA8nDWuXeNMSWlTg2SB4QBvRXQnR1 gF12vWAZEBnIRenhPPLoaHg4PWrfs5NgzeoTDtG6q2YfBQOagUZtoRByutDisHL._Gf.p8vp4Bfo 4HC4io6EsRWL6Is1DiqfwHHZn9HGvExZl9KcGGLlRj7zOMOvG9dCEIrSCATsUM9hUOC_39.dwZ.0 uWfKyK114IY8pZO3OYjcFxol88afVbehzY84zixqZWzZ6.7_vOELxsePos33C5a_rZDezEjYLDjp _nX0Fg6G7lFvgl2lqa6CMhdPJTy1fsOefhJdcYunoaAVhA4f6YSLkpn.NQdf4flBsKvx1wXqGG4Q Ldt8P481DSxyj3Gefsau6kczaUrE.fsdL_ryr7cNxrL8nyxKkGRxe0BV7QFYPhT31bTkx2QFT6XW O6a7i6Bto8ioExkHPJ3H4.BDY9FLMcoSsayECRhHaEMcnpBdodFXTYLRAh8QMI0uqhAB92uRaPct 7Ml9y6b3S_RDg09kIsEgdluoDsx93gBEyPOnb7OT7RiwxDeAfmDXsKsBfLmfs1O8t.wxu43RHoeA E_ynbKhTyF2xC1UMsIqHMd9JHXzoeq5qOleLDmpOBBxu5mcWV3jzRlhfM78QMqvSkVaNu7sucV4a JZtkqcLJH88KnfGfFjE_.4KVQIOgGd9XCTvyolLMkSi.tWyvDDp9hTAXvij5iO6mfL0_1o4e3Cb2 7EvNOHJCXpJunBHW5qH.ZUbqQWi6Q.yAc1ROssPHf6AOYflnDT08KLLoVFDqJWrIC04b8XBPt4Ip qqHQ6utseKHJBaIMx193IMPfTJ9gDdEf46ukgoeByY4RGZpYP6dQvTKyVeHQyWEIr2dWHHUBn_FB O3rVG0foPhTiRQcEfEQ2Ia4IyqRB3884J4YlIfhiXut6pJqOWeoTQEyTFo.uAuwPPngh9b9suT7d y7yyjL9O1pawCv2bU0yrgvnl_YJGlTahEsVE4te92obUmj_KsZ4DKRZf9_4lLutcYdNeJ6PwUqOO NM.4h7YWDx00yW7kMCMWeo3ACCz.U5X6.kyUehfOBfT.7oC8PtSPaXtszs5LlowVYN6r8aznD7eR gW4rvLqat Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:59:19 +0000 Received: from 104-48-143-159.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net (EHLO mac-pro.attlocal.net) ([104.48.143.159]) by smtp426.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ae25ca61892dc39e6510d98beabdf314 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 19:59:14 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9625B53B-AB13-4606-8BB1-00D509A70200" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] smoothing out 24p Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 13:59:11 -0600 References: To: After Effects List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9D0C6536-34EF-4D39-97AC-7870F45A9A0D@flash.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) --Apple-Mail=_9625B53B-AB13-4606-8BB1-00D509A70200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Strobing in film cameras is also tied to shutter angle, which has an = analog in After Effects. Most film cameras have a fixed shutter angle, = which ties the exposure to 1/48 second at 24 FPS, although some cameras = like the Eclair NPR have a shutter you can vary to shorten the exposure = time to 1/96, 1/128 etc. Mr. Peabody would tell us that the physics of = this determines that strobing is more pronounced with shorter shutter = speeds. The visual effect of strobing happens when there=E2=80=99s not = some overlap of image content in consecutive frames. This explains it better than I just did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_disc_shutter > On Nov 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Rick Gerard = wrote: >=20 > Critical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They are = determined by frame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to do = with it also. I don=E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but here = is what I think is an accurate copy of the charts. > http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm >=20 > It=E2=80=99s important to remember that the focal lengths given in the = charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 mm cameras so the speed/focal = length recommendations would work with a video camera with an APS-C = sensor because it=E2=80=99s about the same size as a classic 35mm film = camera. >=20 > Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other factors also gang up on video = cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The only perfect solution is to = follow the rules. >=20 >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton > wrote: >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in camera = (usually an early HD camera during a pan rather than a film camera) and = judder to be what happens when animating in After Effects. Now that = they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interchangeably, maybe we need a new term = like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D? (I hope some else is laughing at that = like I am.) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -Warren >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis > wrote: >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m old and I don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I was = taught in film school is =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D I never heard of = =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80=9D until film started being transferred to tape = and then the tape was posted on tape. =20 >>>=20 >>> And we hated it! >>>=20 >>> :) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Rick Gerard > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> There is a thing called critical pan speed. The combination of = movement, frame rate and retinal retention mean that any movement in the = frame that falls in the range of critical speeds will judder. The way to = reduce the problem is to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, = higher frame rates mean less motion blur and we like to have motion blur = so the footage looks more like a movie and less like a video.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> If you are stuck with problematic footage that was shot at 24 (or = any frame rate) you have two options. Change the timing of the shot, = which may result in audio problems or unnatural action, or force some = motion blur or use some software to generate extra frames to try and = hide the problem. All you have to do to change the timing is change the = interpretation of the footage (File>Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing = motion blur can be done with CC Force Motion blur, but really good = =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames can really only be generated with 3rd party = software. >>>>=20 >>>> Twixtor is really good at interpolating extra frames. If you want = more frames and you want the timing to stay the same then you have to = increase the frame rate of the comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use = something like Twixtor. Force Motion Blur will work when the frame rate = for the footage and the comp are the same, but the results are not as = good. >>>>=20 >>>> I hope this makes sense to you. The ASC handbook has had critical = panning speed tables in it for a zillion years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay = attention and check on the set it=E2=80=99s pretty easy to end up with = shots that can=E2=80=99t really be fixed in a pleasing way.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Here are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ section of = the Adobe Forum on avoiding and overcoming the problem: >>>> "Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by Rick Gerard = >>>> "Best practices for creating text and vector graphics for video=E2=80= =9D = >>>>=20 >>>> I hope this helps. >>>>=20 >>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Following are I think your options: >>>>> If you are dealing with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), = you could interpret your footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will = play a little faster at 29.97fps (duration will be shorter). >>>>> If you are editing with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these = days other than for broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown = during your AE export. >>>>> Otherwise you will have to recreate these missing frames one way = or another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like Twixtor... >>>>>=20 >>>>> David Baud >>>>> Colorist & Finishing Editor >>>>> david at kosmos-productions.com >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't = gotten the solution yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a = 29.97 sequence. I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder = frame that is present when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. = What's the way to get this done? I feel like I've done it before. = Checking the frame blending box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing = the speed of the clip. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_9625B53B-AB13-4606-8BB1-00D509A70200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Strobing in film cameras is also tied to shutter angle, which = has an analog in After Effects.  Most film cameras have a fixed = shutter angle, which ties the exposure to 1/48 second at 24 FPS, = although some cameras like the Eclair NPR have a shutter you can vary to = shorten the exposure time to 1/96, 1/128 etc.  Mr. Peabody would = tell us that the physics of this determines that strobing is more = pronounced with shorter shutter speeds.  The visual effect of = strobing happens when there=E2=80=99s not some overlap of image content = in consecutive frames.

This explains it better than I just did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_disc_shutter




On Nov = 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Critical pan spends = are not limited to video cameras. They are determined by frame rate and = motion. Angle of view has something to do with it also. I don=E2=80=99t = have time to grab my ASC Manual but here is what I think is an accurate = copy of the charts.
http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm

It=E2=80=99s important to remember that = the focal lengths given in the charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 = mm cameras so the speed/focal length recommendations would work with a = video camera with an APS-C sensor because it=E2=80=99s about the same = size as a classic 35mm film camera.

Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other = factors also gang up on video cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The = only perfect solution is to follow the rules.

On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in = camera (usually an early HD camera during a pan rather than a film = camera) and judder to be what happens when animating in After Effects. =  Now that they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interchangeably, maybe we = need a new term like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D?  (I hope some = else is laughing at that like I am.)



-Warren




On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m old and I = don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I was taught in film school is = =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D  I never heard of =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80=9D= until film started being transferred to tape and then the tape was = posted on tape.  

And we hated it!

:)



On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, = Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

There is a thing = called critical pan speed. The combination of movement, frame rate and = retinal retention mean that any movement in the frame that falls in the = range of critical speeds will judder. The way to reduce the problem is = to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, higher frame rates mean = less motion blur and we like to have motion blur so the footage looks = more like a movie and less like a video. 

If you are stuck with problematic = footage that was shot at 24 (or any frame rate) you have two options. = Change the timing of the shot, which may result in audio problems or = unnatural action, or force some motion blur or use some software to = generate extra frames to try and hide the problem. All you have to do to = change the timing is change the interpretation of the footage = (File>Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing motion blur can be done = with CC Force Motion blur, but really good =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames = can really only be generated with 3rd party software.

Twixtor is really good = at interpolating extra frames. If you want more frames and you want the = timing to stay the same then you have to increase the frame rate of the = comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use something like Twixtor. Force = Motion Blur will work when the frame rate for the footage and the comp = are the same, but the results are not as good.

I hope this makes sense to you. The ASC = handbook has had critical panning speed tables in it for a zillion = years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay attention and check on the set it=E2=80=99= s pretty easy to end up with shots that can=E2=80=99t really be fixed in = a pleasing way. 

Here are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ = section of the Adobe Forum on avoiding and overcoming the = problem:
"Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by Rick = Gerard
"Best practices for creating text and vector graphics for = video=E2=80=9D

I hope this helps.

On Nov = 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Following are I think your options:
If you are dealing = with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), you could interpret your = footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will play a little faster at = 29.97fps (duration will be shorter).
If you are editing = with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these days other than for = broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown during your AE = export.
Otherwise you will have to recreate these = missing frames one way or another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like = Twixtor...

David Baud
Colorist & = Finishing = Editor
david = at kosmos-productions.com

On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't = gotten the solution yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a = 29.97 sequence. I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder = frame that is present when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. = What's the way to get this done? I feel like I've done it before. = Checking the frame blending box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing = the speed of the clip.

Thanks






= --Apple-Mail=_9625B53B-AB13-4606-8BB1-00D509A70200--