From: "Brian Higgins" Received: from mail-pl1-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7189631 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:50:37 +0100 Received: by mail-pl1-f172.google.com with SMTP id t13so1794765ply.13 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:03:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=flavor-tv.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QdMbdIHLhNv/LlBuPET21eq2CYt6xiF7bbmtH8WqCow=; b=jZIMykqAolDVV4g815ImAgd0hiJIZ/T52NVgJWE3yqdooPeV5xZFVbSPvaM1sjmd97 3b7K1F6D9YuzaJZoKYGcTrbKovc4yR1JoXaaQI/6K0C5xXSCL443MoLS3IftrxEx3v2e tHSeTScWm44KkSyCXKoRuqGGABp2D8XbYl2/+Tm+F9QOm0DEcKI1jCZuUk43Szg+PSA/ 6VL2t0EkjNTBR74kAJHEbTQMZcmKhekHZr1Vjp2OM+zNhV2hevFXzELCXKRuqkQyPPvl wp4cffmbqnvbdh0+gG3TlZBTAQ/Xt2QrjhCyB1CblvtIf1F0tCmwdiJwOAGh9TqHvJM9 uGIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=QdMbdIHLhNv/LlBuPET21eq2CYt6xiF7bbmtH8WqCow=; b=a/wR78WBpRPEicguB81tXgfTHDpyTbEgSJP8kxIGSjMb/iAPu0ZA5TOlgj0IkNvG6O ZzYmzI1E9OTMjZbQ/tJC49y+YvVOqsWCgPHr6Q1dDwP5yKnTj1QOGlHaZ/EvUhnx0yup zMXqWiCsPe4uxGGriLA4cJNMXxy2+jPgbWcEWytSqkmkTJLVNPhigNRsbUkj2lbnPFnj sQXZqYijw2X7mBO+GOdx67I9XRkJ5ZD4ENXA0ZSH6gdd5lCm9c3CenzsZExMwfnz+xtJ GEto48cIYpbGLhgz9lOExuY8jXJZtYfgsPklWFPWh/Qx+6bMOQ4ztvEG4XwsU/PRRP8b f9Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJMh45POmXaWlS2U940o2flxy9U78cD9N5ewgUTC+CfUr6ywo3p hFnmrBXYKPMfp+igk9kPYA6cE0dkXHWdOi3kLoD5eUo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fEoq8/pNSGjqIwjqwegT7MTaS7fURJIxHFHei2m19GXionvSsQMpFImp9uyYuhiCppXvGv7Iy5UeiacRAG8JI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b28b:: with SMTP id u11mr2021521plr.57.1542049397756; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:03:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:03:10 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] smoothing out 24p To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000946976057a7c5a7c" --000000000000946976057a7c5a7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Twixtor is footage-dependent and by no means a guarantee. On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:56 PM Byron Nash wrote= : > Forgive my terminology. I wasn't referring to the artifact from panning > too fast. But the repeated 5th frame when dropping a 24(23.976) clip into= a > 30(29.97) comp. Sounds like Twixtor is a must. I had a hard time getting = AE > to give me an interpolated frame since I wasn't retiming it. > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 3:00 PM Jim Curtis wrote= : > >> Strobing in film cameras is also tied to shutter angle, which has an >> analog in After Effects. Most film cameras have a fixed shutter angle, >> which ties the exposure to 1/48 second at 24 FPS, although some cameras >> like the Eclair NPR have a shutter you can vary to shorten the exposure >> time to 1/96, 1/128 etc. Mr. Peabody would tell us that the physics of >> this determines that strobing is more pronounced with shorter shutter >> speeds. The visual effect of strobing happens when there=E2=80=99s not = some >> overlap of image content in consecutive frames. >> >> This explains it better than I just did: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_disc_shutter >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Rick Gerard wrote: >> >> Critical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They are determine= d >> by frame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to do with it also= . I >> don=E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but here is what I think i= s an >> accurate copy of the charts. >> http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm >> >> It=E2=80=99s important to remember that the focal lengths given in the c= harts are >> for normal 4 perf pull down 35 mm cameras so the speed/focal length >> recommendations would work with a video camera with an APS-C sensor beca= use >> it=E2=80=99s about the same size as a classic 35mm film camera. >> >> Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other factors also gang up on video >> cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The only perfect solution is to foll= ow >> the rules. >> >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton >> wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in camera (us= ually an >> early HD camera during a pan rather than a film camera) and judder to be >> what happens when animating in After Effects. Now that they=E2=80=99re = so easy to >> use interchangeably, maybe we need a new term like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2= =80=9D? (I hope >> some else is laughing at that like I am.) >> >> >> >> -Warren >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99m old and I don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I was tau= ght in film >> school is =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D I never heard of =E2=80=9Cjudder= =E2=80=9D until film started being >> transferred to tape and then the tape was posted on tape. >> >> And we hated it! >> >> :) >> >> >> >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Rick Gerard wrote= : >> >> There is a thing called critical pan speed. The combination of movement, >> frame rate and retinal retention mean that any movement in the frame tha= t >> falls in the range of critical speeds will judder. The way to reduce the >> problem is to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, higher frame >> rates mean less motion blur and we like to have motion blur so the foota= ge >> looks more like a movie and less like a video. >> >> If you are stuck with problematic footage that was shot at 24 (or any >> frame rate) you have two options. Change the timing of the shot, which m= ay >> result in audio problems or unnatural action, or force some motion blur = or >> use some software to generate extra frames to try and hide the problem. = All >> you have to do to change the timing is change the interpretation of the >> footage (File>Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing motion blur can be done w= ith >> CC Force Motion blur, but really good =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames can r= eally only be >> generated with 3rd party software. >> >> Twixtor is really good at interpolating extra frames. If you want more >> frames and you want the timing to stay the same then you have to increas= e >> the frame rate of the comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use something >> like Twixtor. Force Motion Blur will work when the frame rate for the >> footage and the comp are the same, but the results are not as good. >> >> I hope this makes sense to you. The ASC handbook has had critical pannin= g >> speed tables in it for a zillion years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay attenti= on and >> check on the set it=E2=80=99s pretty easy to end up with shots that can= =E2=80=99t really be >> fixed in a pleasing way. >> >> Here are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ section of the >> Adobe Forum on avoiding and overcoming the problem: >> "Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by Rick Gerard >> >> "Best practices for creating text and vector graphics for video=E2=80=9D >> >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud wrote: >> >> Following are I think your options: >> If you are dealing with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), you >> could interpret your footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will play a >> little faster at 29.97fps (duration will be shorter). >> If you are editing with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these days >> other than for broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown during yo= ur >> AE export. >> Otherwise you will have to recreate these missing frames one way or >> another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like Twixtor... >> >> David Baud >> Colorist & Finishing Editor >> david at kosmos-productions.com >> >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash wrote: >> >> I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't gotten the >> solution yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a 29.97 >> sequence. I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder frame th= at >> is present when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. What's the way t= o >> get this done? I feel like I've done it before. Checking the frame blend= ing >> box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing the speed of the clip. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --=20 brian higgins | creative director Flavor ny =E2=80=A2 chicago =E2=80=A2 la =E2=80=A2 detroit =E2=80=A2 tokyo 312.706.5500 brian.higgins@flavor.tv flavor.tv --000000000000946976057a7c5a7c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Twixtor is footage-dependent and by no means a guarantee.<= /div>
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 a= t 12:56 PM Byron Nash <AE-Lis= t@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Forgive my terminology. I wasn't referring to the artifa= ct from panning too fast. But the repeated 5th frame when dropping a 24(23.= 976) clip into a 30(29.97) comp. Sounds like Twixtor is a must. I had a har= d time getting AE to give me an interpolated frame since I wasn't retim= ing it.=C2=A0

On Fri, = Nov 9, 2018 at 3:00 PM Jim Curtis <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Strobing in film cameras is also tied to shutter angle, w= hich has an analog in After Effects.=C2=A0 Most film cameras have a fixed s= hutter angle, which ties the exposure to 1/48 second at 24 FPS, although so= me cameras like the Eclair NPR have a shutter you can vary to shorten the e= xposure time to 1/96, 1/128 etc.=C2=A0 Mr. Peabody would tell us that the p= hysics of this determines that strobing is more pronounced with shorter shu= tter speeds.=C2=A0 The visual effect of strobing happens when there=E2=80= =99s not some overlap of image content in consecutive frames.

This explains it better than I just did:





On No= v 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Cri= tical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They are determined by f= rame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to do with it also. I don= =E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but here is what I think is an a= ccurate copy of the charts.

=
It=E2=80=99s important to remember that the focal lengths given in the= charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 mm cameras so the speed/focal le= ngth recommendations would work with a video camera with an APS-C sensor be= cause it=E2=80=99s about the same size as a classic 35mm film camera.

Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other factors also gang= up on video cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The only perfect solution = is to follow the rules.

On Nov 9= , 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve always conside= red strobing to be what happens in camera (usually an early HD camera durin= g a pan rather than a film camera) and judder to be what happens when anima= ting in After Effects.=C2=A0 Now that they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interc= hangeably, maybe we need a new term like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D? =C2= =A0(I hope some else is laughing at that like I am.)



-Warren




On Nov 9, 2018, at = 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m old = and I don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I was taught in film school = is =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D =C2=A0I never heard of =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80= =9D until film started being transferred to tape and then the tape was post= ed on tape. =C2=A0

And we hated it!

=
:)



On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
There is a thing called critical pan speed. The combination of movemen= t, frame rate and retinal retention mean that any movement in the frame tha= t falls in the range of critical speeds will judder. The way to reduce the = problem is to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, higher frame rate= s mean less motion blur and we like to have motion blur so the footage look= s more like a movie and less like a video.=C2=A0

If you = are stuck with problematic footage that was shot at 24 (or any frame rate) = you have two options. Change the timing of the shot, which may result in au= dio problems or unnatural action, or force some motion blur or use some sof= tware to generate extra frames to try and hide the problem. All you have to= do to change the timing is change the interpretation of the footage (File&= gt;Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing motion blur can be done with CC Forc= e Motion blur, but really good =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames can really only= be generated with 3rd party software.

Twixtor is = really good at interpolating extra frames. If you want more frames and you = want the timing to stay the same then you have to increase the frame rate o= f the comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use something like Twixtor. Force= Motion Blur will work when the frame rate for the footage and the comp are= the same, but the results are not as good.

I hope= this makes sense to you. The ASC handbook has had critical panning speed t= ables in it for a zillion years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay attention and che= ck on the set it=E2=80=99s pretty easy to end up with shots that can=E2=80= =99t really be fixed in a pleasing way.=C2=A0

Here= are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ section of the Adobe F= orum on avoiding and overcoming the problem:

I hope this helps.


Followi= ng are I think your options:
If you are dealing with unsync clip (no s= ound matching critical), you could interpret your footage to play at 23.976= fps, and they will play a little faster at 29.97fps (duration will be short= er).
If you are editing with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these = days other than for broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown during = your AE export.
Otherwise you will have to recreate these missing= frames one way or another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like Twixtor...

=
David Baud
Colorist & Finishing Editor
david at kosmos-productions.com

On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nas= h <AE-List@= media-motion.tv> wrote:

I'm d= rawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't gotten the solut= ion yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a 29.97 sequence.= I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder frame that is pr= esent when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. What's the way to ge= t this done? I feel like I've done it before. Checking the frame blendi= ng box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing the speed of the cl= ip.

Thanks




<= /div>


--

brian higgins | creative director

Flavor

ny =E2=80=A2 chicago =E2=80=A2 la =E2=80=A2 detroit = =E2=80=A2 tokyo

312.706.5500

brian.higgins@flavor.tv

flavor.tv


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