From: "Jim Curtis" Received: from sonic310-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.209] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTP id 7189637 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 20:02:12 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=flash.net; s=s2048; t=1542050092; bh=Bx2U39rno/4EhHNvBprsmB1+JNazRU+lUIY4zKBxw9I=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=fUNf6JsmqIID789RJdlUH4Z+SerpXNjVhdPlBcUMxRbEv8CUo1tJLFGaJVcFZTB8Kk489aw/TYARGKJiMDSX+cbyVz3e6dqAbCTH/4gh11sIwenX35gz96O1u4zy9sVNH0kRl54kQHlcDELlJnlSrohOprP47EsLXwvTCXHEDT5pbHCtEogu9k6osifTb77NP/QYTLP6iwF6Hg3FMo6JlYRWWxBcRhNrRgUJjhLNINU3ZH2yMZKxIaP+DaQzf+pklZuEdQEibY25shl+IwF8/rFC/5FcWaFPeHzG9oIdx0/lpC1bFBcfnCwtPamb7wPgdrASUr8agwW+P+qtZkv8Cg== X-YMail-OSG: ha1hVv4VM1kAl0AtrOy_MiOfmadQmhKJCZKjHHT5fOKjyzLS5RiTqJcLGAzQLPm S11DjQqPruOHyDEJvtVE1ktEMVt4RHrpz5t6rzqZieOhnkdIyNrAIDrYyT87Kdp1YF73.UazIguO FDl6B7ZoGSXCOeQnpdkLG214glDGIqmv7wKDYlEK_0JYQIduM777PSWLhB_UMOMxlHhadq.K58hp P_yJTgYo5RWIUYKAfgEu.Gflt.6Nb_S3JnUDEt6KYctrCVKX50AXJSA4PxjR7N5On1lndCDQQMrc xo0KkpIEFuJrOPiBs.Q4tyt_y76IA16Fq.TNKju_LXWz.NUKQYaMYRaL82KSxPNKT5QWbpc7c2Vz KxsInhHGnzA.ELTzN8qXFn3_yNp3DzZ6xwH3G2Th3md7lMmsARqE4fAD_4BTSI5tXKhFLuyvNrYT MziydzvNUdt23SJVhjgS40kI4zctk32LmPSUyRbSjk6EglXN42jgB_VmboBgnCw8G09EowQ7gXg7 nwS2EGOxs3m.igk37ewhPX681Z.7x82jWirQO9eosqG.wC2.wOEfb612txosabh2Uq__4FtVyHrf T5wiMpdr5eEZCjmOAJDpuIZbQp7YLr2Jfn7jSiW9hnCS72j6WUZRj4q907Wv6WQw7pUL2S6HTl03 tOyLC9utNITmpeIXXC.ytohMTCOeZMRIDnVCvj7i_XYbvTMCvTi6ulj71h6QEmrIk6NBegewDjCX dI59Owl5hFA8XWuelwPbSuO0VGGmxJCi6ID1KgixHvm.GlgThqGztWxUCeCpjiS_IJYlnLgxNf_5 ji3DaAKmb7kDmbBTBzkS_GxWNVH_g6QkPciZvpeQqTZvFZcBl7E6iLzq4dokzZn2p230pRdPRGXQ Eoxxv_jxe7jD7SWL20tb2xJt.h6pscj3a2WczM2ue6vyeZky5KHSJ_.1Vqu25_Af_NiFhdVBthi7 zXlAn1CcWUAiV49TkwOV04x2SeRFmSEaQQFYKOMxl4wi7PfcJFhOvgfF7DpQdG7dOkl2Xec0vtSL 9sw8It5.xiLxvXgpHJva66Hg1HbxvLJ4nXU5F7yO2KB9Q6FTfyCKtYKYrmGk1tcksIi0UXtqRiKh 7uxc8YJDUxBI- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:14:52 +0000 Received: from 104-48-143-159.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net (EHLO mac-pro.attlocal.net) ([104.48.143.159]) by smtp418.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4632341200ae11320a4884bb2064cd85 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:14:48 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D84F8DDC-49E2-483E-A54B-728110F8FBB6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] smoothing out 24p Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:14:47 -0600 References: To: After Effects List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <97F14F29-29FC-4E92-8CD3-39AE5BD945F5@flash.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) --Apple-Mail=_D84F8DDC-49E2-483E-A54B-728110F8FBB6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Sorry for the derail.=20 I was going to suggest this, as it=E2=80=99s what I do when I don=E2=80=99= t need to use the audio: >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Following are I think your options: >>>>>> If you are dealing with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), = you could interpret your footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will = play a little faster at 29.97fps (duration will be shorter). Works better interpreting 29.97 as 23.976, because it makes the footage = play slower, which is often preferable to having it play faster. This = method avoids duplicating or dropping frames, and softening that can = happen with blending. > On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:56 PM, Byron Nash = wrote: >=20 > Forgive my terminology. I wasn't referring to the artifact from = panning too fast. But the repeated 5th frame when dropping a 24(23.976) = clip into a 30(29.97) comp. Sounds like Twixtor is a must. I had a hard = time getting AE to give me an interpolated frame since I wasn't retiming = it.=20 >=20 > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 3:00 PM Jim Curtis > wrote: > Strobing in film cameras is also tied to shutter angle, which has an = analog in After Effects. Most film cameras have a fixed shutter angle, = which ties the exposure to 1/48 second at 24 FPS, although some cameras = like the Eclair NPR have a shutter you can vary to shorten the exposure = time to 1/96, 1/128 etc. Mr. Peabody would tell us that the physics of = this determines that strobing is more pronounced with shorter shutter = speeds. The visual effect of strobing happens when there=E2=80=99s not = some overlap of image content in consecutive frames. >=20 > This explains it better than I just did: >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_disc_shutter = >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Rick Gerard > wrote: >>=20 >> Critical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They are = determined by frame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to do = with it also. I don=E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but here = is what I think is an accurate copy of the charts. >> http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm >>=20 >> It=E2=80=99s important to remember that the focal lengths given in = the charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 mm cameras so the = speed/focal length recommendations would work with a video camera with = an APS-C sensor because it=E2=80=99s about the same size as a classic = 35mm film camera. >>=20 >> Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other factors also gang up on video = cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The only perfect solution is to = follow the rules. >>=20 >>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton > wrote: >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in camera = (usually an early HD camera during a pan rather than a film camera) and = judder to be what happens when animating in After Effects. Now that = they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interchangeably, maybe we need a new term = like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D? (I hope some else is laughing at that = like I am.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -Warren >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99m old and I don=E2=80=99t like the new term for what I = was taught in film school is =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D I never heard = of =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80=9D until film started being transferred to tape = and then the tape was posted on tape. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> And we hated it! >>>>=20 >>>> :) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Rick Gerard > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is a thing called critical pan speed. The combination of = movement, frame rate and retinal retention mean that any movement in the = frame that falls in the range of critical speeds will judder. The way to = reduce the problem is to shoot at higher frame rates. Unfortunately, = higher frame rates mean less motion blur and we like to have motion blur = so the footage looks more like a movie and less like a video.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> If you are stuck with problematic footage that was shot at 24 (or = any frame rate) you have two options. Change the timing of the shot, = which may result in audio problems or unnatural action, or force some = motion blur or use some software to generate extra frames to try and = hide the problem. All you have to do to change the timing is change the = interpretation of the footage (File>Interpret Footage>Main). Forcing = motion blur can be done with CC Force Motion blur, but really good = =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames can really only be generated with 3rd party = software. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Twixtor is really good at interpolating extra frames. If you want = more frames and you want the timing to stay the same then you have to = increase the frame rate of the comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and use = something like Twixtor. Force Motion Blur will work when the frame rate = for the footage and the comp are the same, but the results are not as = good. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I hope this makes sense to you. The ASC handbook has had critical = panning speed tables in it for a zillion years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay = attention and check on the set it=E2=80=99s pretty easy to end up with = shots that can=E2=80=99t really be fixed in a pleasing way.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Here are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ section = of the Adobe Forum on avoiding and overcoming the problem: >>>>> "Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by Rick Gerard = >>>>> "Best practices for creating text and vector graphics for video=E2=80= =9D = >>>>>=20 >>>>> I hope this helps. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Following are I think your options: >>>>>> If you are dealing with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), = you could interpret your footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will = play a little faster at 29.97fps (duration will be shorter). >>>>>> If you are editing with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these = days other than for broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown = during your AE export. >>>>>> Otherwise you will have to recreate these missing frames one way = or another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like Twixtor... >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> David Baud >>>>>> Colorist & Finishing Editor >>>>>> david at kosmos-productions.com >>>>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a few solutions and haven't = gotten the solution yet. I have some 23.976 footage that I'm using in a = 29.97 sequence. I'd like to use optical flow to eliminate that judder = frame that is present when putting 24p footage into 30p timelines. = What's the way to get this done? I feel like I've done it before. = Checking the frame blending box doesn't seem to fix it. I'm not changing = the speed of the clip. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_D84F8DDC-49E2-483E-A54B-728110F8FBB6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Sorry= for the derail. 

I was going to suggest this, as it=E2=80=99s what I do when I = don=E2=80=99t need to use the audio:

On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Following are I think your options:
If you are dealing = with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), you could interpret your = footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will play a little faster at = 29.97fps (duration will be = shorter).

Works= better interpreting 29.97 as 23.976, because it makes the footage play = slower, which is often preferable to having it play faster.  This = method avoids duplicating or dropping  frames, and softening that = can happen with blending.



On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:56 PM, Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Forgive my terminology. I wasn't referring to the artifact = from panning too fast. But the repeated 5th frame when dropping a = 24(23.976) clip into a 30(29.97) comp. Sounds like Twixtor is a must. I = had a hard time getting AE to give me an interpolated frame since I = wasn't retiming it. 

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at = 3:00 PM Jim Curtis <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Strobing in film cameras is also tied to shutter angle, which = has an analog in After Effects.  Most film cameras have a fixed = shutter angle, which ties the exposure to 1/48 second at 24 FPS, = although some cameras like the Eclair NPR have a shutter you can vary to = shorten the exposure time to 1/96, 1/128 etc.  Mr. Peabody would = tell us that the physics of this determines that strobing is more = pronounced with shorter shutter speeds.  The visual effect of = strobing happens when there=E2=80=99s not some overlap of image content = in consecutive frames.

This explains it better than I just did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_disc_shutter




On Nov = 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Critical pan spends are not limited to video cameras. They = are determined by frame rate and motion. Angle of view has something to = do with it also. I don=E2=80=99t have time to grab my ASC Manual but = here is what I think is an accurate copy of the charts.
http://frontside.de/dls/pan.htm

It=E2=80=99s important to remember that = the focal lengths given in the charts are for normal 4 perf pull down 35 = mm cameras so the speed/focal length recommendations would work with a = video camera with an APS-C sensor because it=E2=80=99s about the same = size as a classic 35mm film camera.

Rolling shutter, interlacing, and other = factors also gang up on video cameras shooting at 24/25 or lower. The = only perfect solution is to follow the rules.

On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Warren Heaton <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve always considered strobing to be what happens in = camera (usually an early HD camera during a pan rather than a film = camera) and judder to be what happens when animating in After = Effects.  Now that they=E2=80=99re so easy to use interchangeably, = maybe we need a new term like =E2=80=9Cstrudding=E2=80=9D?  (I hope = some else is laughing at that like I am.)



-Warren




On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Jim Curtis = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m old and I don=E2=80=99t like the new term for = what I was taught in film school is =E2=80=9Cstrobing.=E2=80=9D  I = never heard of =E2=80=9Cjudder=E2=80=9D until film started being = transferred to tape and then the tape was posted on tape.  

And we hated = it!

:)



On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Rick Gerard <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

There is a thing called critical pan speed. The combination = of movement, frame rate and retinal retention mean that any movement in = the frame that falls in the range of critical speeds will judder. The = way to reduce the problem is to shoot at higher frame rates. = Unfortunately, higher frame rates mean less motion blur and we like to = have motion blur so the footage looks more like a movie and less like a = video. 

If you = are stuck with problematic footage that was shot at 24 (or any frame = rate) you have two options. Change the timing of the shot, which may = result in audio problems or unnatural action, or force some motion blur = or use some software to generate extra frames to try and hide the = problem. All you have to do to change the timing is change the = interpretation of the footage (File>Interpret Footage>Main). = Forcing motion blur can be done with CC Force Motion blur, but really = good =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D frames can really only be generated with 3rd = party software.

Twixtor is really good at interpolating extra frames. If you = want more frames and you want the timing to stay the same then you have = to increase the frame rate of the comp (sequence in Premiere Pro) and = use something like Twixtor. Force Motion Blur will work when the frame = rate for the footage and the comp are the same, but the results are not = as good.

I = hope this makes sense to you. The ASC handbook has had critical panning = speed tables in it for a zillion years. If you don=E2=80=99t pay = attention and check on the set it=E2=80=99s pretty easy to end up with = shots that can=E2=80=99t really be fixed in a pleasing = way. 

Here = are a couple of articles from the After Effects FAQ section of the Adobe = Forum on avoiding and overcoming the problem:
"Avoiding judder in motion graphics" by = Rick Gerard
"Best practices for creating text and = vector graphics for video=E2=80=9D

I hope this helps.

On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:42 AM, David Baud <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Following are I think your options:
If you are dealing = with unsync clip (no sound matching critical), you could interpret your = footage to play at 23.976fps, and they will play a little faster at = 29.97fps (duration will be shorter).
If you are editing = with interlaced footage (kind of unusual these days other than for = broadcast masters), then you could add pulldown during your AE = export.
Otherwise you will have to recreate these = missing frames one way or another=E2=80=A6 using a plugin like = Twixtor...

David = Baud
Colorist & Finishing = Editor
david = at kosmos-productions.com

On Nov 9, 2018, at 7:12 , Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I'm drawing a blank here. Tried a = few solutions and haven't gotten the solution yet. I have some 23.976 = footage that I'm using in a 29.97 sequence. I'd like to use optical flow = to eliminate that judder frame that is present when putting 24p footage = into 30p timelines. What's the way to get this done? I feel like I've = done it before. Checking the frame blending box doesn't seem to fix it. = I'm not changing the speed of the clip.

Thanks







= --Apple-Mail=_D84F8DDC-49E2-483E-A54B-728110F8FBB6--