From: "Brian Higgins" Received: from mail-pf1-f177.google.com ([209.85.210.177] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7228638 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:15:33 +0100 Received: by mail-pf1-f177.google.com with SMTP id c123so5836838pfb.0 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:24:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=flavor-tv.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=CUT+KYbKoNqjDh3HV1mrDeos4KM1HATfB7BCc82T6w8=; b=iPnjj1r9QLHq7+76i7Akf7Uhhi8rArrAMufb3tpla/tGGQbLmLwZv2sWOYbRb4bUHc dHY0Tyv83LREA7UqOI4KIuGzxN9JtJb/EcQKOZgS27KaBT08uAi6kOsdLX5sySJf5gkW lxh/58P4hW/2LZZrVorkN++HoB6uSi64E18g1I0EvElL8adob3N67FXzSET3nndo3Ogf SadfvQCs+U4npkl6sjCaXoFknYQj+TDVKwMwODTObK98daEn5D+7VEYV+NapxhtaXhxG VF80mN1ZQ8ISarjPKgH080+EkuYvKj1yzVWWqWdoOy8AIeYUVpzzky2HYYMeaSLWVexa 38sQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=CUT+KYbKoNqjDh3HV1mrDeos4KM1HATfB7BCc82T6w8=; b=DIzwuFI5Otop3MbXIh6Bdo8nTYf3zWmuQAUzdZrQeSzCJn/RzAqfUvk4coX3CfLPPP EkZLTe3MsoXKIatOA7jm27BZjNdHHPXGTxyhGcwT40pHfT7B/w0NQGWE2ce2AxmgY61c ntj5xBP2y3R1+kLXoYUTt3/apBG/lVWbjYyYldFDMMUI1wWn0a0MYLPpnDSYZP/pckd0 k/2IbEkz3KUYIO3CseV7SSnfCig4X4iHw73unB+dGMnQEIIXyZLrvIjtPzALgrztWnmc wSigrxUPxvHmqqhxHitQVMlXmngf3JuVlogYZQJoSYA20ymjbGTDdfqUOvMCDCBJj6yS KjrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdlJdF1wU1jADGq6LTbDv6/RlYPI2p3aPQL39sluQDadnnRwlz1 tPQL3gUr9wAW4uy1rnWvBBnC3XnClVZlViV18h5TH74= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6x3dUFatnhdwDAhKGvqi7qHtcmPXRMioLB9bFQoJYzNIoI53kV0YykbcCkRaa13Z+h/VEy3PhikFq8b1uY1bE= X-Received: by 2002:a62:5f07:: with SMTP id t7mr11574690pfb.108.1547151885647; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:24:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 14:24:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Clients requesting RAW files To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ed2ea057f205e77" --0000000000008ed2ea057f205e77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with what Adam said. Using expensive plugins like Sapphire at least gives them pause sometimes, but the ship has largely sailed. Fighting it is a good way to lose future business. It's not 2002 anymore, for better or for worse. -b On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 2:08 PM Tim Sassoon wrote= : > I agree. Do it, but charge for it. And throw EVERYTHING in there - all > test renders, etc. Go big. > > In my experience it=E2=80=99s basically the collector=E2=80=99s impulse -= they feel more > secure having everything. You really want them to come back and do more > projects, mostly. > > > Tim Sassoon > Venice, CA > > > > > On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Adam Mercado > wrote: > > This has become a trend in my experience, over the years clients have com= e > to expect/demand everything. > > The question is not whether you need to hand over everything to them, the > question is whether you want to work with them again. Stand your ground a= nd > they will do find someone else. It=E2=80=99s not like this stuff is diffi= cult > anymore. The software and hardware has removed so many pain points over t= he > years that what we do is basically a commodity. I learned that the hard > way, after asking the very same question several times. Every time I stoo= d > my ground I never worked with that client again. Whether there was a > contract or not. > > And even with the contract, if I ever stood my ground in contract > negotiations, the point of contention was always raw files. They want the= m, > don=E2=80=99t want to pay more for them, if I stood my ground it was bye = bye. > > So I=E2=80=99ve learned long ago to stop fighting that battle. If they=E2= =80=99re going to > take my files to someone else, they=E2=80=99re going to do so one way or = another. I > may as well make a few bucks off them before they go. And they may even > stay. It=E2=80=99s a losing battle either way as far as I can tell. Other= s may have > more positive experience but to me that=E2=80=99s the way the game is pla= yed out > these days > > > > > > > On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, David Torno wrote= : > > Raw files are NOT part of deliverables unless that was explicitly agreed > upon in the contract up front by all parties involved. > > This applies regardless of it being a company or an individual freelancer > contracted for the work. > > These are details that must be made clear at the beginning unfortunately > though. Discussing these details after the fact presents very awkward > situations like this that can and usually leave a bad taste in both parti= es > mouths. Jeopardizing any future collaboration. > > Many clients have a misconception that any and all files related to the > process are theirs for the taking. That is incorrect. They must understan= d > that they are contracting a company or individual to produce a single FIN= AL > product. If they want versions, they pay for that work. They want to > archive? Then they can pay you to do so. Yes handing over those files wil= l > guarantee that they will reuse them later and by a cheaper individual too= . > I see it happen a lot. > > If you are willing to give away your proprietary work, tools, or unique > techniques for free or even for compensation... that is something only yo= u > can choose to do. > > Good luck. > > > David Torno > 818.391.6060 > -------------------- > www.sydefxink.com (work history) > https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work samples & breakdowns) > https://gumroad.com/davidtorno > http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno (tutorials) > > "The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh" > -Charles Field > > On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:41 AM, Michael Powers > wrote: > > I know this has been discussed many times before, but increasingly client= s > expect/request all files from projects - including Illustrator, photoshop= , > stock footage and music, AfterFX, and 3ds MAX files. > > Is this a trend? It has been happening also with clients that we are the > agency of record with. I am uncomfortable giving away intellectual proper= ty > for free and having some freelancer undercutting us using our files! > > Thoughts? > > > > > Mike Powers > *https://vimeo.com/mpowers * > 3DBOXX W8920Processor 32.0 GB RAM > Dual Xeon CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz, 2601 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical > Processor(s) > Windows 10 Enterprise - 1734 > NVIDIA GTX TITAN Black RAM 6.0 GB Driver Version 471.35 > > > --=20 brian higgins | creative director Flavor ny =E2=80=A2 chicago =E2=80=A2 la =E2=80=A2 detroit =E2=80=A2 tokyo 312.706.5500 brian.higgins@flavor.tv flavor.tv --0000000000008ed2ea057f205e77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with what Adam said. Using expensive plugins like = Sapphire at least gives them pause sometimes, but the ship has largely sail= ed. Fighting it is a good way to lose future business. It's not 2002 an= ymore, for better or for worse.

-b

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 2:08 PM Tim S= assoon <AE-List@media-motion.= tv> wrote:
I agree. Do it, but charge for = it. And throw EVERYTHING in there - all test renders, etc. Go big.

=
In my experience it=E2=80=99s basically the collector=E2=80=99s = impulse - they feel more secure having everything. You really want them to = come back and do more projects, mostly.


<= div>
Tim Sassoon
V= enice, CA




On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Adam = Mercado <AE= -List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

This has become a trend in my experience, over the years client= s have come to expect/demand everything.=C2=A0
<= br>
The question is not whether you need to hand = over everything to them, the question is whether you want to work with them= again. Stand your ground and they will do find someone else. It=E2=80=99s = not like this stuff is difficult anymore. The software and hardware has rem= oved so many pain points over the years that what we do is basically a comm= odity. I learned that the hard way, after asking the very same question sev= eral times. Every time I stood my ground I never worked with that client ag= ain. Whether there was a contract or not.=C2=A0
<= br>
And even with the contract, if I ever stood m= y ground in contract negotiations, the point of contention was always raw f= iles. They want them, don=E2=80=99t want to pay more for them, if I stood m= y ground it was bye bye.=C2=A0

So I=E2=80=99ve learned long ago to stop fighting that battle.= If they=E2=80=99re going to take my files to someone else, they=E2=80=99re= going to do so one way or another. I may as well make a few bucks off them= before they go. And they may even stay. It=E2=80=99s a losing battle eithe= r way as far as I can tell. Others may have more positive experience but to= me that=E2=80=99s the way the game is played out these days


<= br>


On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, David Torno &l= t;AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:=

Raw files are NOT part of= deliverables unless that was explicitly agreed upon in the contract up fro= nt by all parties involved.

This applies regardles= s of it being a company or an individual freelancer contracted for the work= .

These are details that must be made clear at the= beginning unfortunately though. Discussing these details after the fact pr= esents very awkward situations like this that can and usually leave a bad t= aste in both parties mouths. Jeopardizing any future collaboration.

Many clients have a misconception that any and all files = related to the process are theirs for the taking. That is incorrect. They m= ust understand that they are contracting a company or individual to produce= a single FINAL product. If they want versions, they pay for that work. The= y want to archive? Then they can pay you to do so. Yes handing over those f= iles will guarantee that they will reuse them later and by a cheaper indivi= dual too. I see it happen a lot.

If you are willin= g to give away your proprietary work, tools, or unique techniques for free = or even for compensation... that is something only you can choose to do.

Good luck.


David Torno<= div>818.391.6060
--------------------
www.sydefxink.com=C2=A0(work history)
= https://vimeo.com/davidtorno=C2=A0(work samples & breakdowns)
<= a href=3D"http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno" style=3D"color:purple;text-d= ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno<= /a>=C2=A0<= /span>(tutorials)

&= quot;The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh"
-Charles Field

On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:41 AM, Michael Powers <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before, but increasing= ly clients expect/request all files from projects - including Illustrator, = photoshop, stock footage and music, AfterFX, and 3ds MAX files.
=C2=A0
Is this a trend? It h= as been happening also with clients that we are the agency of record with. = I am uncomfortable giving away intellectual property for free and having so= me freelancer undercutting us using our files!
=C2=A0
Thoughts?
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
= =C2=A0

Mike Powers
https://vimeo.com/mpowers

3DBOXX W8920Processor=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A032.0 GB RAM=C2=A0=
Dual Xeon CPU E= 5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz, 2601 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Processor(s)<= /u>
Windows 10 Enterpri= se - 1734
NVIDIA GTX TITAN Black RAM=C2=A0=C2= =A06.0 GB=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Driver Version=C2=A0 471.35
<= /div>
<= br>

--=

brian higgi= ns | creative director

Flav= or

ny =E2=80=A2 chicago =E2=80=A2 la =E2=80=A2 detroit =E2=80=A2 tokyo=

312.706.5500

brian.higgins@flavor.tv

flavor.tv


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