From: "Jim Curtis" Received: from sonic301-25.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.137.64.151] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTP id 7228646 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:27:03 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=flash.net; s=s2048; t=1547152574; bh=0kKdDh0Y49WmgRX/7cww2kcNBHvdIhZ6SNfonNCPJ4w=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=fAJNJnikvQIdTddNLjEjet+/oHOU51vlqobOmA7F2BoKtf094YchElBKsjhqExZuuMxm/fz3NY+DQmTk28CUAg5cA1aSAlUKnb+Wo+ML8nPUntFmdSI6P9rurgir/m9UWdHvLgIuArm78GfftgOAeLr0hqdg2B849PIBaKfKDjVh+bC9esAGRWBKCIZT/+ocwR58d5JdwUV4BuuP4T/AHuhZTez6BuBrez9iBhVll+qTu0tP/RWjtRNXvZwu2VrCgCbvv0iMI7dMHvygGDw1ndKsJ3KDb8g1QzArC3aN9RlnTp7KOmCpCCNE8ZuhDSWLxoh2x0YmYqSBbRa6+sWI3A== X-YMail-OSG: lAwwrRsVM1mXqlpcrxCgfY4nhyTsqzZfB57_6mv5Jt0Hf1b2zr4t3v1Rwz3d8Zk UUjPCwE2Jo6PV6Sw16RawQCPHqYKYYRey0lPyP__AQJK2A.fRmrolxiskq1gc.9T7FTEofIZKmpq 9fSN.64EpMpCChvxw.6ZjzSBAmYKoRL1nvERNQLTEFf8K0g8NxGkkqZDqyKFY32aQHuARgkKWpB7 NEXaYGtneBOObvZdi_JCq_imQ_4LznH2xrbvmVIF0nWmzS1TvuZyIvJn_WBPHubjwX1Zlrarvfi9 AS1k7.NnmDasi8iTFQgHzAw2h4e2iBMnvRWwHH9by5qd3XZSnWfQUyonDNkbRxrurcXr5SEAYGUW HCvWJFY.8DQFPWKJ6uJmBpoQxpSmDBojfbYO5CXXkJba0m3oUbZw5k40JR6F18U37chah1yyb92e 1NFwNcLK46fyvEKrrAioUzFWqcckRRBNWz0mqwMfXpiLFcepm.KmtA4o695BQk.qijYQtulElkmR 9WErIQKph4FieuyshaQPP5MJLnY1sxezj7MQziAhK3paqk7FyYMdJcZtsa5LCaMLHlBK2_AmKknM XQuRQyU6eRU1mUHOQBlJzbH_2Ylgp0oOovEs3gTJYO4U1Gvu6yU.Cy_sANB1AY6LXO68A2WSur24 gU3wAFGB1.8ep6E_Sp27zrSfKIu30CkDIC0gqh8ACHPb9YdZ_1hjs7vqeye88EVEjwWLWqD9nApD _mWQHnfD3uJHRdL3Oqhlcd_23Sscp8boTYDy1SyXjPIkN53udmrUm1mtRYIwDk3g0bHbqgHz1VfR awVZrjg7.PbdiKedSy_.wnJbxTLJhb6MPRfBWkca244QeY7rdSr97jbllloiujsyQY90kGO0hL5L X8Lb0ZWHh2sfgo3C6fvs- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 20:36:14 +0000 Received: from 104-48-143-159.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net (EHLO mac-pro.attlocal.net) ([104.48.143.159]) by smtp432.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 75ede02bc5ea61ba7f6f6f4cfa9d78c3 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 20:36:12 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A428F3EC-F285-4BC9-9E96-7AEC38782808" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Clients requesting RAW files Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 14:36:11 -0600 References: To: After Effects List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4B2687AF-BE2A-4CBA-9D60-FD887C03A440@flash.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) --Apple-Mail=_A428F3EC-F285-4BC9-9E96-7AEC38782808 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My business is probably 80% editing and 20% Ae. Last year, a client = started asking me to send footage I=E2=80=99ve been archiving to another = editor. After I got over the insult, I decided to turn it into a profit = center. I charged him $150 / hour for the time it took to locate and = load my LTO tape, the restore time, the copy to a portable disk from the = restore (including the time to go to Best Buy or Office Max to buy a = drive, plus the cost of the drive), the time to box it up, print a = shipping label, and drive the box to UPS and back home again. I felt a lot better after the insult by seeing what the other editor did = with the footage. It was, in my honest and totally fair and unbiased = opinion, no better than anything I would have done or have done for this = client in the past, and the new editor has a tin ear as far as mixing = audio. I think my client was sold some magic beans. Ironically, =E2=80=9Ccreatives" at ad agencies are the biggest suckers = for hype I=E2=80=99ve ever encountered outside of horny teenagers. BTW, I=E2=80=99ve just been asked how much I=E2=80=99d charge to = complete post on five videos that I lost the bid on to a competitor = whose bid was half of mine. And they asked what I need from the = under-bidder in terms of assets. Apparently, the client isn=E2=80=99t = getting the quality of work they were expecting. Imagine that. =20 It seems there=E2=80=99s never enough money to do it right the first = time, but there=E2=80=99s always enough to do it over. > On Jan 10, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Tim Sassoon > wrote: >=20 > I agree. Do it, but charge for it. And throw EVERYTHING in there - all = test renders, etc. Go big. >=20 > In my experience it=E2=80=99s basically the collector=E2=80=99s = impulse - they feel more secure having everything. You really want them = to come back and do more projects, mostly. >=20 >=20 > Tim Sassoon > Venice, CA >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Adam Mercado > wrote: >>=20 >> This has become a trend in my experience, over the years clients have = come to expect/demand everything.=20 >>=20 >> The question is not whether you need to hand over everything to them, = the question is whether you want to work with them again. Stand your = ground and they will do find someone else. It=E2=80=99s not like this = stuff is difficult anymore. The software and hardware has removed so = many pain points over the years that what we do is basically a = commodity. I learned that the hard way, after asking the very same = question several times. Every time I stood my ground I never worked with = that client again. Whether there was a contract or not.=20 >>=20 >> And even with the contract, if I ever stood my ground in contract = negotiations, the point of contention was always raw files. They want = them, don=E2=80=99t want to pay more for them, if I stood my ground it = was bye bye.=20 >>=20 >> So I=E2=80=99ve learned long ago to stop fighting that battle. If = they=E2=80=99re going to take my files to someone else, they=E2=80=99re = going to do so one way or another. I may as well make a few bucks off = them before they go. And they may even stay. It=E2=80=99s a losing = battle either way as far as I can tell. Others may have more positive = experience but to me that=E2=80=99s the way the game is played out these = days >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, David Torno > wrote: >>=20 >>> Raw files are NOT part of deliverables unless that was explicitly = agreed upon in the contract up front by all parties involved. >>>=20 >>> This applies regardless of it being a company or an individual = freelancer contracted for the work. >>>=20 >>> These are details that must be made clear at the beginning = unfortunately though. Discussing these details after the fact presents = very awkward situations like this that can and usually leave a bad taste = in both parties mouths. Jeopardizing any future collaboration. >>>=20 >>> Many clients have a misconception that any and all files related to = the process are theirs for the taking. That is incorrect. They must = understand that they are contracting a company or individual to produce = a single FINAL product. If they want versions, they pay for that work. = They want to archive? Then they can pay you to do so. Yes handing over = those files will guarantee that they will reuse them later and by a = cheaper individual too. I see it happen a lot. >>>=20 >>> If you are willing to give away your proprietary work, tools, or = unique techniques for free or even for compensation... that is something = only you can choose to do. >>>=20 >>> Good luck. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> David Torno >>> 818.391.6060 >>> -------------------- >>> www.sydefxink.com (work history) >>> https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work = samples & breakdowns) >>> https://gumroad.com/davidtorno >>> http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno = (tutorials) >>>=20 >>> "The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh" >>> -Charles Field >>>=20 >>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:41 AM, Michael Powers > wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I know this has been discussed many times before, but increasingly = clients expect/request all files from projects - including Illustrator, = photoshop, stock footage and music, AfterFX, and 3ds MAX files. >>>> =20 >>>> Is this a trend? It has been happening also with clients that we = are the agency of record with. I am uncomfortable giving away = intellectual property for free and having some freelancer undercutting = us using our files! >>>> =20 >>>> Thoughts? >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> Mike Powers >>>> https://vimeo.com/mpowers >>>> 3DBOXX W8920Processor 32.0 GB RAM=20 >>>> Dual Xeon CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz, 2601 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical = Processor(s) >>>> Windows 10 Enterprise - 1734 >>>> NVIDIA GTX TITAN Black RAM 6.0 GB Driver Version 471.35 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A428F3EC-F285-4BC9-9E96-7AEC38782808 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
My business is = probably 80% editing and 20% Ae.  Last year, a client started = asking me to send footage I=E2=80=99ve been archiving to another editor. =  After I got over the insult, I decided to turn it into a profit = center.  I charged him $150 / hour for the time it took to locate = and load my LTO tape, the restore time, the copy to a portable disk from = the restore (including the time to go to Best Buy or Office Max to buy a = drive, plus the cost of the drive), the time to box it up, print a = shipping label, and drive the box to UPS and back home again.

I felt a = lot better after the insult by seeing what the other editor did with the = footage.  It was, in my honest and totally fair and unbiased = opinion, no better than anything I would have done or have done for this = client in the past, and the new editor has a tin ear as far as mixing = audio.  I think my client was sold some magic beans.

Ironically, = =E2=80=9Ccreatives" at ad agencies are the biggest suckers for hype = I=E2=80=99ve ever encountered outside of horny teenagers.

BTW, I=E2=80=99ve just = been asked how much I=E2=80=99d charge to complete post on five videos = that I lost the bid on to a competitor whose bid was half of mine. =  And they asked what I need from the under-bidder in terms of = assets.  Apparently, the client isn=E2=80=99t getting the quality = of work they were expecting.  Imagine that.  

It seems there=E2=80=99s = never enough money to do it right the first time, but there=E2=80=99s = always enough to do it over.



On Jan = 10, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Tim Sassoon <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I agree. Do it, but = charge for it. And throw EVERYTHING in there - all test renders, etc. Go = big.

In my = experience it=E2=80=99s basically the collector=E2=80=99s impulse - they = feel more secure having everything. You really want them to come back = and do more projects, mostly.


Tim= Sassoon
Venice, CA




On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Adam Mercado <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

This has become a trend in my = experience, over the years clients have come to expect/demand = everything. 

The = question is not whether you need to hand over everything to them, the = question is whether you want to work with them again. Stand your ground = and they will do find someone else. It=E2=80=99s not like this stuff is = difficult anymore. The software and hardware has removed so many pain = points over the years that what we do is basically a commodity. I = learned that the hard way, after asking the very same question several = times. Every time I stood my ground I never worked with that client = again. Whether there was a contract or not. 

And even with the contract, if I ever stood my ground = in contract negotiations, the point of contention was always raw files. = They want them, don=E2=80=99t want to pay more for them, if I stood my = ground it was bye bye. 

So = I=E2=80=99ve learned long ago to stop fighting that battle. If they=E2=80=99= re going to take my files to someone else, they=E2=80=99re going to do = so one way or another. I may as well make a few bucks off them before = they go. And they may even stay. It=E2=80=99s a losing battle either way = as far as I can tell. Others may have more positive experience but to me = that=E2=80=99s the way the game is played out these days






On Jan = 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, David Torno <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:

Raw files are NOT part of = deliverables unless that was explicitly agreed upon in the contract up = front by all parties involved.

This applies regardless of it being a = company or an individual freelancer contracted for the work.

These are details that = must be made clear at the beginning unfortunately though. Discussing = these details after the fact presents very awkward situations like this = that can and usually leave a bad taste in both parties mouths. = Jeopardizing any future collaboration.

Many clients have a misconception that = any and all files related to the process are theirs for the taking. That = is incorrect. They must understand that they are contracting a company = or individual to produce a single FINAL product. If they want versions, = they pay for that work. They want to archive? Then they can pay you to = do so. Yes handing over those files will guarantee that they will reuse = them later and by a cheaper individual too. I see it happen a = lot.

If you = are willing to give away your proprietary work, tools, or unique = techniques for free or even for compensation... that is something only = you can choose to do.

Good luck.


David Torno
818.391.6060
--------------------
www.sydefxink.com (work history)
https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work samples & = breakdowns)
https://gumroad.com/davidtorno
http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno (tutorials)

"The most useless day is that in which we do not = laugh"
-Charles Field

On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:41 AM, Michael Powers <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:

I know this has been = discussed many times before, but increasingly clients expect/request all = files from projects - including Illustrator, photoshop, stock footage = and music, AfterFX, and 3ds MAX files.
 
Is this a trend? It has been happening = also with clients that we are the agency of record with. I am = uncomfortable giving away intellectual property for free and having some = freelancer undercutting us using our files!
 
Thoughts?
 
 
 

Mike Powers
https://vimeo.com/mpowers

3DBOXX = W8920Processor          = 32.0 GB RAM 
Dual Xeon CPU = E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz, 2601 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Processor(s)
Windows 10 Enterprise - = 1734
NVIDIA GTX TITAN Black = RAM  6.0 GB     Driver Version  = 471.35


= --Apple-Mail=_A428F3EC-F285-4BC9-9E96-7AEC38782808--